Bryan Enderle
Description: Bryan Enderle is a senior lecturer and professor of Chemistry at UC Davis. In this episode we speak with Enderle about his transition from researcher to lecturer at Davis. He shares his passion for teaching and how he helps students understand complex concepts in chemistry. We also talk about the relationship between God and science and explore the ways in which the two can coexist. Enderle emphasizes the importance of open-mindedness and curiosity in all aspects of life.
Websites:
Articles:
Best Professor: Dr. Bryan Enderle
Dr. Bryan Enderle discusses believing both in God and in science
How to Make Chemistry a Gateway - Not a Gatekeeper - to STEM
Show Notes:
[0:00:00] Introduction and Welcoming Professor Bryan Enderle
[0:00:40] From Grad School to Teaching Chemistry at Davis
[0:03:11] Adjusting to Teaching Chemistry Full-Time
[0:09:01] Understanding concepts and problem-solving approaches
[0:11:01] Explaining complex concepts on different levels
[0:17:01] The Challenge of Broad Curriculum and Test Difficulty
[0:18:32] Transitioning from Discord to Traditional Methods during COVID
[0:24:32] Challenges of Substituting Labs with Safer Alternatives
[0:27:49] Implementing Green Chemistry Principles at Davis
[0:30:26] Tips for Approaching Lab Classes and Techniques
[0:32:46] Exploring the Relationship Between Science and Religion
[0:35:52] Science as a Tool, Not a Worldview
[0:37:46] Discovering Conflict and Seeking Understanding
[0:40:07] Time Dilation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity
[0:41:38] Exploring the Analogies Between God and Light
[0:43:16] Connecting with Chemistry and Finding Passion in the Work
[0:48:04] Engaging with an expert for better understanding
Unedited AI Generated Transcript
Introduction and Welcoming Professor Bryan Enderle
Brent:
[0:04] Welcome professor Bryan Enderle. Thank you for coming on.
Bryan:
[0:08] Yeah, great to be here.
Keller:
[0:09] We'd love to start off by hearing a little bit more about your story How'd you get to Davis and what got you interested in chemistry?
Bryan:
[0:15] I Actually came to Davis for grad school in chemical engineering In grad school.
I liked I realized I like the chemistry side of chemical engineering the best So the research that I got into was primarily focused in chemistry.
Brent:
[0:32] And then what made you switch from being a researcher to a lecturer?
From Grad School to Teaching Chemistry at Davis
Bryan:
[0:40] Through a series of events that I didn't totally plan.
But after I finished grad school or about the time I was approaching the finish, I put my application in to teach chemistry classes here at Davis. Davis.
And I sort of forgot about it, but it was on a rolling application.
And so, they called me, I guess it was September 2002.
And I came over, I was available, hired me on the spot. I started about a week and a half later.
Keller:
[1:15] Wow.
Brent:
[1:15] Wow. So, a lot of your research was done before Davis, correct or?
Bryan:
[1:21] Before starting in the chemistry department, that's right. But I had some leftover data that some of it got processed by me, some by other people, and those turned into papers.
So I had publications after I started in chemistry.
Brent:
[1:37] Okay, so where did you work before the chemistry department?
Bryan:
[1:39] I was in chemical engineering at UC Davis though.
Brent:
[1:42] Okay, that makes sense.
Keller:
[1:43] Did you do your undergraduate in engineering or chemistry?
Bryan:
[1:48] My undergrad, I was a double major chemical and petroleum engineering and I was at Cal.
Brent:
[1:52] Okay, so those were two separate majors back then or?
Bryan:
[1:56] Yes, but we had those two majors and other majors like here have a lot of overlap.
So sometimes there's some common double majors or emphases and I ended up mixing those two.
Brent:
[2:07] Did you originally think you were going to go towards a career in energy given like the petroleum background?
Bryan:
[2:15] Yeah, the most common of my friends would have been or was gasoline, refineries, chemical plants like Dow Chemical, Exxon Mobil, things like that would have been a prettycommon route.
Brent:
[2:31] Yeah, but did you always know you didn't want to go down that route?
Bryan:
[2:35] I was planning on it the whole time. Yeah, really, until I started in the chemistry department. That was my plan. Okay.
Keller:
[2:42] Yeah. And was that your first experience teaching when you applied to join the chemistry department or had you had prior experience?
Bryan:
[2:49] For the most part, yes. I was a teaching assistant like other grad students or teaching assistants, but the positions that I I had very little teaching in them.
And so I did sub for a class once, I ran office hours, but nothing that had a regular teaching component.
Adjusting to Teaching Chemistry Full-Time
Brent:
[3:11] And then how was that adjustment becoming a full-time lecturer after kind of primarily being in the research end of things?
Bryan:
[3:19] In one sense, it was really different. In another sense, I really enjoyed it.
So I enjoyed teaching a lot. I didn't expect to enjoy it that much, But there is, it was an adjustment with such a large classroom.
So I couldn't know everybody.
It was a bit intimidating at first, the first few weeks.
And, but over time I got used to it and became comfortable.
Brent:
[3:45] Yeah, because, especially with chemistry being such a contentious topic for so many students.
Bryan:
[3:51] Most people hate it, yeah.
Brent:
[3:53] How do you, why do you love chemistry so much? And then how do you try to transfer that love in the classroom.
Bryan:
[4:00] Yeah, if I zoom out a little bit, I realized I enjoy explaining things that people perceive are really difficult to understand.
And so chemistry fits in that mold.
And so I've always enjoyed that, trying to make it as clear as possible for students.
And I think in general, most folks, if they get something that feels really clear, they'll enjoy it more because they get the grasp of how this goes to this, goes to that, yeah.
Keller:
[4:28] And do you feel like your teaching is constantly changing? Because you've been teaching for 20 years now, right?
Bryan:
[4:33] Yeah, yeah, just over 20.
Keller:
[4:34] Is it something that you're learning a new way of explaining something every year? You've kind of gotten to a point where you know how you're gonna explain topic X and it tendsto stick that way.
Bryan:
[4:44] For the most part, I'd say 80 to 90% of what I'm doing is about the same every quarter.
But there's occasional times where I will think of a new way to explain something, or a student will ask me something and I'll realize, oh, that was a block, and then I'll come up with anew style of doing it.
But that's maybe one or two topics per quarter, and they just rotate in.
Sometimes I'll see a movie or something, and I think of, oh, this would be a great example problem, because people are familiar with this movie.
Let me say something about that, or make a question about it.
Brent:
[5:17] And then it seems like chemistry is really a prerequisite for at least half the majors on campus.
How should people go about approaching chemistry given that it's so integral to everything we're doing in life, but at the same time seems so abstract.
Bryan:
[5:34] Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I mean, in one sense, there's the aspect of how do I study for chemistry?
And then the other aspect is, do I see this play out in other classes?
I actually try to do that for the student as far as the latter one, where as I learn over time where chemistry plays out in biology or physics or biology is the most common, And I'll try tomention that or have an example or I have even some notes and slides from other instructors of other classes in bio.
So, I'll use those at relevant times to make the connection for people.
And usually when I start that, then they can folks get the idea.
Brent:
[6:20] Yeah.
Keller:
[6:21] And how do you see students that aren't in the biological sciences, maybe in humanities, how can they benefit from studying chemistry?
Bryan:
[6:29] Yeah, we actually do have an occasional English major, history major, taking a general elective and they wanted to study chemistry.
I think chemistry in one sense, it's a nice goal to be able to figure out and get through, but also it forces your mind to think in a different way.
And some things I like to do is help people see when there is something applicable to to the news or something they see later that they can understand it.
So for example, we just went over concentrations in class.
A common concentration is parts per million, which is used environmentally for sometimes toxins.
So City of Davis puts out, for example, how much chromium do they have in the water in parts per million.
And so you can, as a citizen, you can read that, see that in a newspaper and kind of understand what they're getting at.
Brent:
[7:24] Yeah, and I'm pretty sure the weather app is now tracking air quality in balloons for parts per million probably.
Bryan:
[7:31] Yeah, exactly. So things like that, that's a great example where things in chemistry don't realize have far-reaching tentacles.
Yeah.
Brent:
[7:41] Yeah. And then why do you think it's so challenging for so many of these undergraduates?
Bryan:
[7:47] It can be pretty painful for people, that's right. Um, I think it's mixing math.
You know, the algebra side of math which is not that popular always, plus these symbolic forms of representing chemicals which is people have seen but is also foreign.
And so, mixing those two things together gets pretty tough.
A student might be able to do the math problem on their own or maybe they can identify a chemical, but putting all those things together in one class, adding new concepts all the time,new equations all the time, that gets tough.
People usually, freshmen will default to memorization and that can make it harder if you're trying to, if you unconsciously sidestep the concept to go for memorization, that's a lot of stuffto put in your head.
Brent:
[8:41] Pete I'm sure. And then when it comes to studying, because you just talked about like maybe memorization isn't the best, and maybe we should be trying to understand concepts andthen apply them.
Do you think, what do you think some of the best tactics are for these younger students to understand the concepts better?
Understanding concepts and problem-solving approaches
Bryan:
[9:01] Yeah, it can be hard because I try in my class, I try to highlight the concepts, and then when I'm reusing it, I'll say it again.
And put that thread through. And because sometimes you can do a problem forward and that's the most common way, but it can also be asked in the reverse direction and then you've gotto back do it.
And that can throw folks, if you've only memorized, say the forward direction of solving a problem.
So I try to put that out for people, but for students to realize, hey, this, if I've solved the problem one way, it can be asked a totally different way.
So how do I look for the key parts of the problem and then use the concepts I know to follow through?
I think that's something you get better as if you're sophomore to junior to senior year, you start being able to realize and track concepts.
But you can survive my class by memorizing. If you get to organic chemistry, it gets pretty tough. You have to be an exceptional memorizer to ace the class and do it through purememorization.
Brent:
[10:09] Yeah, there's too many different ones.
Bryan:
[10:10] Too much different stuff going on, right? And you can ask a question so many ways. And so that throws your memorization off.
Yeah, certainly. Yeah, so if my class doesn't get you, OCHEM will reform your ways.
Brent:
[10:24] The most you can do in OCHEM seems to be just memorizing the rules.
Once you do that, then you have to apply them to Howard Media.
By the end of the quarter.
Bryan:
[10:33] Yeah.
Keller:
[10:36] Any examples of things, whether it's books or videos of people that can explain these concepts in a seemingly unacademic way that ties them in, these abstract concepts?
Because I know there's some people, for example, in math, they're like, these concepts on their own are pretty hard to understand, but there's these passages, they can try to bring themback to the level of daily life.
Do you have any examples of those?
Explaining complex concepts on different levels
Bryan:
[11:01] Of videos I've seen. Yeah. I can't think of a chemistry example, but I have seen videos of explaining things on five levels.
I don't know if you've seen that on YouTube where they explain, say, gravity to a kindergartner, and then they explain it to a high schooler, and then a physics major, and then a PhDstudent, and then the expert in the field.
So they're going through the same concept, but on different levels.
I really like those videos because it highlights how deep, how simple it is, if you understand it, but how complex it can be when you get to the highest levels.
Brent:
[11:39] And then do you think that could be a tactic students could try to take with each other of what's the simplest way I can say this?
And then what's a little bit more detail, and then a little bit more detail as a way of trying to study it in?
Bryan:
[11:51] Yeah, that's great. If a student can articulate a concept, that's really good.
And then applying it to different problems, if they can talk it out through different problems, especially if you get a problem you haven't seen before and you talk it out, okay, I'm seeingthese pieces in the problem, that makes me think this, here's my two or three options at this moment.
Okay, I'm leaning this way because blank.
Brent:
[12:12] Yeah, and then, Do you have any words of advice for these students who may be struggling to kind of incentivize them to stick through it?
Because especially if this is their first or maybe second time ever seeing a lot of these problems, when it comes to OCAM and then you readdress some of the things, then when you get to,I'm in MPB, we're readdressing some of the OCAM topics, we're readdressing some of these other topics and things start to come back and then it's no longer foreign.
It's, oh, now I just have to remember back to like the last class I took, I can relook at my notes.
The idea of you might get to see that in Chem 2A, but when you get to MPB 110, you might get an A because it's no longer the first time you've seen something.
That was a common thread you've seen with a lot of students.
Bryan:
[12:58] I've even seen that with Chem grad students. So they, a lot of them don't necessarily do well in Gen Chem because it is general.
It's a buffet of many topics.
And even in chemistry, you might like one particular topic or a few of the whole bunch.
And so, that kind of student can get to grad school in chemistry and excel quite well, even though when they start off, they're not necessarily getting it.
Because again, I can't go into detail for every particular topic, it's just too much. So I'm just giving you a little buffet, check this out, oh check this one out, check this out.
There's some general things that tie these together, but at the same time, they're different topics.
So it's quite likely you get to upper division class and it really starts to pay off.
Brent:
[13:48] Yeah. Could you maybe describe some of those different topics within chemistry to maybe for the kid who thinks they're interested but starts to struggle and now be like, wait, no,you could go apply all these different areas of chemistry.
Bryan:
[14:03] Yeah, let me see if I can think of something. There's just so many directions you can go.
So you can go like the classic chemistry route where you learn stoichiometry reactions and things like that, and then you can go work at a place like Dow Chemical or something, somesort of chemical plant where there's reactions become super important and they wanna produce a certain product with a certain yield, and that plays out in detail once you get there. Butthere could be other places.
We just had a snippet in our class of solids.
And then I mentioned network covalent solids, which is carbon.
And carbon plays a major role in everything made of carbon these days.
So bicycle frames, tennis rackets.
So, fine tuning the perfect carbon.
Structure so that it gives the right strength in the right places, but also the flexibility here and the stiffness here.
That can be that five-minute section could be a whole area of study for someone.
And people like those areas. And so, each piece, even like a little sentence I might say, could be somebody's research dissertation.
Brent:
[15:23] Yeah.
Bryan:
[15:25] Yeah. that's interesting just because the other 80% is less interesting doesn't mean you actually can't be a chem or bio or something else major.
Because once you get to the higher levels, you're focusing in on just one particular thing really. So by the time you finish grad school, you are amongst the few people in the world who arean expert in that field.
Keller:
[15:50] Yeah.
Brent:
[15:51] I think that's such an important message because so many Davis students are among the top of their class at high school, are very, very used to getting A's, A pluses throughout theirentire career.
They get here and they get a test average that's a 40 and get so discouraged and like, I'm no longer pre-med.
You are just beginning. There's so much more ahead of you. You could get so much better at this, let alone, like, it's not worth throwing it all away right there.
Bryan:
[16:17] Yeah, there's some weird things with getting used to how the means and the averages work and you almost you have to you can acknowledge your feelings but you kind of have toignore them for a sense to realize okay this numerical score which doesn't match what I did in high school doesn't it is not on the same scale and it doesn't represent what I've learned perse but that numerical score which looks really low could be a B in the class or higher, you don't know.
So getting, you know, in In Ocam, I think I got an A one time and I had like, I scored in the 30s.
The Challenge of Broad Curriculum and Test Difficulty
Brent:
[17:01] Yeah, and like nearly aced the test, but you know, there was I didn't get the other 60% but nobody else did either Yeah, so it's a good score, but mentally you have to change yourmindset Especially with how broad jet cam has to be Yeah You could ask a specific question about anything that you've covered and just especially if you have 50 minutes three times aweek Right, you can't give that depth I think that's where the expectation of it being a five-minute class is you have to go prepare beyond on the 50-minute lectures, and people just gethung up on those facts.
Bryan:
[17:34] And writing a test, I don't always know how difficult a question is.
I'll have a general idea, but sometimes just a slight wording difference compared to what people are used to can really take a whole slew of people out.
Brent:
[17:49] I'm sure.
Bryan:
[17:50] Yeah, so I'm like, oh, I didn't realize that wording, even after writing tests for so many years, because I have to spend like five or six hours blitzing to try to get a test done.
I don't always realize those minor things that could throw somebody off.
Keller:
[18:05] Yeah, certainly. And that's hard to gauge with such a large class too.
Bryan:
[18:08] Right, right.
Keller:
[18:09] Have you noticed, because we talked briefly about the value of teaching your peers and how you can, if you're able to coherently explain a topic that might give some insight toyour own understanding and help you learn better, have you noticed any shifts in students' ability to form these groups and to just be social within the classroom or any other shifts thatmight've occurred after COVID?
Transitioning from Discord to Traditional Methods during COVID
Bryan:
[18:32] I'm a little uncertain what's happening now, but I think during COVID, Discord and things like that became super popular and students, for good or bad, figured out how to use itand that seemed to be good.
And now the transition back, I don't know, you all probably might know better how students are kind of figuring stuff out.
But it seems like it's going somewhat more traditional. I used to have every quarter people would announce the discord server and now it has that has minimized a little bit though I'm surea few exist for every class.
Brent:
[19:10] Yeah from my personal experience I've seen the discords be used for more complaining than I actually help.
Bryan:
[19:15] Yeah.
Brent:
[19:17] I don't have a lot of experience with it but my My biggest thing I've seen is if you have a Zoom office hours.
I don't think anyone's coming on with a camera. Everyone's muted without the camera, and then they're sending texts in the chat.
And it's really awkward at times. I think everyone just sits in the awkwardness and no one takes the first step to really just turn the camera on, ask a question, and get that connectiongoing.
Bryan:
[19:46] Yeah. I don't know if students like those kind of office hours, but I hated it. And so I stopped it immediately as soon as I could.
Brent:
[19:54] I'm sure.
Bryan:
[19:55] Yeah. Even class, everything, nobody really showed their video and then nobody interacted.
If it was class, then they would, there was enough people to get going in the chat, but then it was going too fast. It was hard to follow.
In the, in office hours, sometimes a person would ask a question, but then they would mute or they'd type their question.
And if I don't understand it, it, it's hard to like, well, what do you mean? I hear nothing back.
So, I don't know what to do if I don't understand your question.
Brent:
[20:26] Yeah, it definitely puts the instructor at a weird spot.
Keller:
[20:29] Yeah. And with that, like with COVID, how did you guys select the labs that were going to be the virtual labs? Because I'd imagine it's already difficult to find labs within a 10-week quarter that are conveying the material that you want to convey.
And my sister was chemistry major at UCM, like her whole time was virtual labs.
It wasn't until she was midway through her junior year that she got to go to an actual lab. It's like, how did you guys decide what would best fit given those circumstances?
Bryan:
[20:59] I'm sure it depended on the class, but for our class, we didn't have a choice.
We just took the labs that actually existed and just went with them. But it was far inferior.
So, you all, All the students had to basically watch videos and the TA curated that and went through the process of explaining what was going on in the lab.
But it was the identical labs, unfortunately, and you all could do nothing.
And then you go through the analysis. But we didn't have enough of a bank nor enough time because our switchover occurred between winter and spring quarter.
So I just had that week to get ready. That's insane. And that was it.
Keller:
[21:40] Yeah.
Brent:
[21:42] And then have, since you don't have a lab, but have any of your colleagues expressed the quality of students' abilities to work in labs post.
Pandemic especially coming in as like their grad students because I would assume about now is when a lot of these grad students who spent three four years in COVID undergraduates likecoming into the labs or working in these PhDs now is there a disconnect now or are people worried about that disconnect?
Bryan:
[22:13] We've even noticed it with some of the TAs coming in especially if they had a couple years off and then they're back on they were a little bit rusty And so, even students, their firstcouple years back, for sure rusty or really had no idea what to do.
At the same time in, and they learn and they can figure it out and get back on track, but it does delay a little bit.
At the same time, it was in Gen Chem, we have such a, it's so difficult sometimes for students. They don't have any lab skills in high school.
So, we're kind of used to it. It's really affected the research labs, like you mentioned, and then classes like OCAM. Yeah.
Brent:
[23:00] Yeah.
Bryan:
[23:01] But we have students come in. Now we don't have matches anymore because that caused too many problems, but not knowing how to light a match.
And so, that was our first experiment. I had to use a match and then that class.
So, now we moved on. There's no matches anymore. But yeah, just imagine coming in with that level.
There's probably quite a few high school students who just have no lab experience whatsoever.
Keller:
[23:26] Yeah. And how do you guys decide with the labs, which are the, you know, within the 10 weeks, how do you choose what labs you want to have in Gen Chem?
And what skills are important at what stage?
Bryan:
[23:41] Well, that actually turns out to be a multi-part question because in one sense, we don't have a buffet of labs that we're choosing from to pull in this lab or that.
Other classes do have that luxury. So, we're a bit limited.
One, because the number of students. Two, we have a lab program, so we can't switch in and out that lab program very easily to do the analysis of their data and but we do rotate labs inevery once in a while so a lab rotates out it could rotate out for various reasons could because safety concerns came into play and new regulations came in so we can't use nickel anymorefor example okay so we have to get rid of that lab and sub it for a new lab. or...
Challenges of Substituting Labs with Safer Alternatives
[24:32] We want to use something that is a little safer and maybe students have heard of before. So we might use a dye, a food dye, instead of this random chemical that students haven'theard of.
So we have subbed in labs, but it is a big process to sub in a new lab.
Somebody has to test it, has to be well tested.
And even when we test it, we don't know all the things a student might actually do. So we don't know for sure what's gonna happen.
And then we have to write up the student manual, the TA notes, the program that is gonna process their data when they're doing their data analysis online.
Like everything, it's a major ordeal. So let's say I wanted to get a lab online as soon as possible and I started today and I worked all summer, including all those pieces, it's probably notgonna go online until next year.
Keller:
[25:25] Wow, yeah.
Brent:
[25:26] So how many hours do you think that of work would be put into that, you think?
Bryan:
[25:30] Oh, it would be probably a team of people because I'd include the dispensary.
I'd need some grad students to help test it.
If we have undergrad workers, they could help test it.
Many dozens of hours for sure, yeah.
And it's not all something, oh, I can just blitz this summer and finish it because, okay, once this part is finished, now I can write the procedure.
I can't write the procedure too early.
And then, okay, based on that and my TA comments, a grad student comments, I'll write TA notes up.
And then when that's all done, the last thing we would do is write the post-lab program that's gonna process the data that the students enter.
So it just can't happen fast, it'd be impossible.
Brent:
[26:20] And then could you kind of describe your role overseeing the Gen Chem program at Davis.
Bryan:
[26:26] Yeah, so I teach and at the same time I also coordinate the labs.
So all the Gen Chem labs, we have about 10 to 12,000 students go through our labs every year.
Brent:
[26:39] Wow.
Bryan:
[26:40] And so that is just a whole operation, which is different than you go to a small liberal arts school and you take a 50-person chemistry class.
It's just way different. Things have to happen in a certain way.
So we have everything from 60 to 100 TAs just for CHEM II. That doesn't include all the other classes.
So all the training they need, all the supplies, many dozens, in the near hundreds of thousands of gloves that students need to wear every year.
So in some of these with limitations now on how fast we can get chemicals or supplies, we literally are ordering something a year out to come to the next year.
And we need to order in bulk, in mass, because again, many thousands of students.
And then removal of the waste, so all the student waste has to be removed.
All these regulations and safety concerns. it's just, it is a monstrous administrative thing to tackle.
Implementing Green Chemistry Principles at Davis
Keller:
[27:49] Yeah. You mentioned getting rid of the waste. I know we operate with the green chemistry philosophy and principles at Davis. Could you just briefly talk about that? And I guessmaybe a little history of like when that came into place and any changes that like occurred after that?
Bryan:
[28:05] Yeah, that started to come into play around 2015 is when it was enacted.
So, before that and we had different bodies on campus that were working hard at that.
On our, I can talk about our end, we, for example, we wanted to decrease the amount of solvents we were using. So instead of using 50 milliliter burettes, we went down to 25. so that.
Decrease the amount of our solvent use. We change some of our chemicals to be there's less carcinogens as much as we can and more just solutions things that can go down the drain in avery harmless manner.
So that had those sort of things decrease the waste but there's certain things any metal ions that are in so many of our labs they have to be contained and so there There are also placeswhere we try to tell students, give them tips, okay, your whole bench can make this together and share it.
Sometimes what happens is a student will need, say, a milliliter of something, but then they'll come back to their bench with a huge beaker full of it.
And so it's just too much use. So sometimes the TA can catch that, and sometimes it doesn't. So we have a few labs that are heavy, high-volume waste.
And so those are the ones we try to highlight to the TAs to be extra cautious about. Yeah.
Brent:
[29:29] Yeah. And then when that waste removal comes into play, how long, let's say we have a lab on Wednesday, or all the waste is collected throughout the week for all those differentlabs, is it sitting in the science lab building for a long time or is it getting removed by some third party?
Bryan:
[29:47] Yeah, we'll collect them in these large barrels, just imagine a barrel, and that'll collect.
I'm not the one who calls to have it removed, but I think they have it on a schedule, and I think we can do that almost quarterly.
But there are a couple labs that that lab alone is the same waste collection as all the other labs combined for the quarter, just because of, Bye.
One, how the lab is designed, but two, how a first-timer student approaches a lab and how much they think they need of a particular solvent or reagent or whatever.
Brent:
[30:25] Certainly. Yeah.
Tips for Approaching Lab Classes and Techniques
Keller:
[30:27] And do you have any tips like broadly for students on how to approach lab classes?
Because it is, you know, what you're doing in lecture and what you're doing in lab tend to be a little bit different.
And, you know, your time in lab is, you know, you have to be very involved.
Do you have any advice on how students should approach that?
What kind of philosophy they should be bringing to lab as opposed to lecture?
Bryan:
[30:48] Yeah, and this goes back to one of your earlier questions. Some of the reasons our labs are designed the way they are is that future classes need certain techniques.
So, we're introducing a technique that they might see later in who knows what class, it depends what their major is. So, they may or may not see it.
So, we're trying to introduce, again, a variety of techniques that they're going to get and use later.
So getting a good, if I was a student and knowing I'm going to have more lab classes, getting used to all the equipment, the techniques, the glassware techniques, the tactile nature of themis pretty helpful.
So I wouldn't want to be the one who my lab partner always does everything.
Want to take turns, so at least I got some something out of it.
At the same time, most of our lab, points-wise, is about weighted at about 10% of the total grade.
Keller:
[31:50] So.
Bryan:
[31:52] I don't think it does for most students, but that can relieve pressure.
So, I know there are students who get fairly upset about, oh, I lost a point here, but that's one point over about a thousand in lab that's weighted at 10%.
So, it's, you know, one one thousandth of a percent of your grade, not really a big deal.
So, I would come in with a relaxed nature about the grade, just try to do most everything I can and then as far as the busy work and then try to get all the tactile experience that I can.
Brent:
[32:30] Pete Well, I think that does a really good job covering a lot of the Gen Chem stuff.
And now we kind of want to switch to some of your more notable TED Talks about God existing or coexisting with the idea of science.
Exploring the Relationship Between Science and Religion
[32:46] Could you explain or give or give some background for the listener who maybe hasn't seen those TED Talks, what your ideas are about that relationship?
Bryan:
[32:54] Yeah, there's an idea out there that if you're a scientist, you can't believe in a God or have a religion or something like that.
And that's something I fully disagree with.
And basically how I would say it is the idea of science answers particular questions about nature.
So it studies nature. If you imagine science as a net, it catches things in nature and gives us information about that.
But if you think about things philosophically or theologically, science doesn't tackle those sorts of things. So you need another net to catch that.
[33:37] So science really studies the process by which the universe came to be, how it operates, the engineering of the universe, if you will.
And then what I think theology, philosophy will catch, is there something else out there? Is there a creator, a God, what have you?
And so, I like the idea of tackling both of those things because you get a more holistic picture of what the universe is like.
Science will give you part of it, and then there's other pieces of life that give you part of it.
So, for example, I'm not going to use science, empirical science to figure out who I'm going to marry. I mean, just nobody does that naturally.
So, at the same- and if you think about that, you can't use science to do everything you want in life.
There are other things operating in the world.
So, you can't be so single-minded about it.
Brent:
[34:36] Pete Certainly.
Keller:
[34:36] Jared And would you say that opinion is something that's commonly held in academia among your peers or is that a pretty unique viewpoint?
Bryan:
[34:45] Which opinion?
Keller:
[34:46] The opinion that science and God can coexist and that, you know, you can use both as different nets whereas for me, for example, a lot of my family is academics and they're justacademics. That's, you know, that for them, that is their religion. Yeah.
Bryan:
[34:59] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have a couple thoughts about that. One is, I think most people don't realize there's been a lot of polls out to survey the science world.
And if you compare scientists with PhDs in comparing them to the general population, there's a much higher percentage of scientists with PhDs who believe in a god or religion than thegeneral population.
So, it's the reverse of what most people think.
And the other thing I would say is that science should never be considered as what I would call worldview, meaning how you'd view the world, which could be religious like Buddhism,Islam, Christianity, things like that, or non-religious like existentialism, post-modernism, nihilism.
Science as a Tool, Not a Worldview
[35:52] Those are ways that we view the world. And at their core, they have assumptions that you can't prove.
So, if I say there is a God, you can't prove that using science.
If I say there is no God, you also can't prove that using science.
That's metaphysical or outside of physics. And we just need to be okay with that.
Science is something we can use as a tool to adopt into our worldview, but it can't be a worldview in and of itself because it only explains nature.
It's not going to tell you how to live.
Like, who should you date? Again, you know, you go back to that.
It can't answer every possible question.
So, most people do have a worldview that's not science, but it's and I'd rather, as a scientist, I'd rather be conscious of what is my worldview?
Why am I believing what I'm believing? What are the assumptions that I'm just gonna be okay with?
Brent:
[36:41] Yeah, and then you mentioned that statistic about PhDs being more likely to be religious. Why do you think that is?
Bryan:
[36:50] I don't know people I think people ponder about that for sure.
I can say that at least my take on science I want to approach the world and kind of understand all the pieces of it. So I'm trying to approach everything you might say the scientific methodor inductively.
So I want to ask questions I want to have a hypothesis does it make sense and kind of go like that. So I should also do that.
I use that inductive process outside of science too and maybe other people do as well and want to know some of those what's sometimes called the bigger questions of life.
Keller:
[37:33] And for you, did religion or science, like your love for religion or your love for science, which came first? And then within that, has there already been a point in your career wherethey came at odds?
Discovering Conflict and Seeking Understanding
Bryan:
[37:46] I actually didn't realize that there was a conflict for a long time. Maybe I was out of it, I missed the boat or something like that, but I didn't realize that there was a big conflict and Ithink it wasn't until getting close to grad school or in grad school that I was interacting with people or hearing more of this kind of conflict and that's when I sought out to to be able toarticulate for myself, which is what you see in the TED Talks of how do I see these things go together.
And you know, I'm more of a chemist or physical chemist, so I come from that approach.
There are people, religious folks, who come from a biological standpoint, you know, based on their specialty, they're kind of tackling it in that way.
Brent:
[38:32] So, how do you think your approach as a physical chemist impacts your view on religion? Uh, it's more, that...
Bryan:
[38:43] When I articulate it, I'm going to use the things that come from that angle.
And those are also, of all the things I hear, are most interesting to me.
So, I can give you an example if you want, if that would be helpful.
Yeah. I give, well, I hope this makes sense with no pictures, years.
But I give an example in one of my TED Talks of the theory of relativity and how that is an interesting thought experiment you can do with that and the idea in theology calledomniscience or that God can know all things past, present, and future.
So, but for the average audience, I have to start to explain what the heck is the theory relativity. And in a simple way, what you can say is the faster something goes, there's a lot of piecesof it, but the faster something goes, the slower time goes.
So, there's some really famous experiments, many, but one that I like to highlight was done in 1970s called the Hawthorne Leketian experiments where they had these synchronizedatomic clocks.
Kept one on the ground and then had one on an airliner like we might fly whenever you're trying to travel.
Time Dilation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity
[40:07] And that plane flew around and then came back down and those two clocks that were synchronized initially were no longer synchronized.
So, the one that had been traveling in the plane was behind in time, exactly as predicted by Einstein's formulas.
And that's the theory of relativity. And if you expand that to its limit, the fastest something can go in the universe is the speed of light, pretty much.
So if something's going the speed of light, then it would be its clock, if you will, is going so slow that it's no longer moving.
Or that entity, whatever it is that's going the speed of light, would be outside of time.
So according to the theory of relativity, again, as you go faster, time will go slower.
[40:54] So that's interesting on the science side, but what's interesting for me is kind of that chemistry-physics kind of idea is if you now apply it to this idea of omniscience, which whenyou first think about it, and for many, millennia was this idea that was just mythological, doesn't make sense.
What is there that can be, know all things and be outside of time?
But now with this idea, this analog of light, and knowing something in the physical universe that can be outside of time, we're not as surprised that something like God can be outside oftime knowing past, present, and future and not being confused.
Exploring the Analogies Between God and Light
[41:38] God Himself in many religions describes Himself as light.
So, we don't need to be as surprised because we have an analog.
It wouldn't be a proof and we're not saying that God is a a photon or something like that.
We're just saying that, I would just be saying that I think there's an analog to explain some of what was previously magical or mystical about God actually has some modern scienceanalogs to it.
And so, that's one example of many, some of which is explained in the TED Talks where I see overlap or a commensurate path between God in science.
Keller:
[42:19] Yeah. I think we see that overlap a lot like the further out we go with physics or chemistry. We talked to someone, I think it was two weeks ago, and he was doing quantumcosmology.
And the furthest ends of all of this have become so philosophical in a way that it kind of, whether you call it religion or not, you almost have to intertwine this unknowing within thescience that you're doing.
Bryan:
[42:39] That's fair. Yeah. There comes a point in science where it reaches the limit.
And if you want to go beyond that, you're actually going metaphysical And you have to be okay with that.
And I think at the same time, the public has to know where that's happening because you watch all these Marvel movies and you don't know where the science is ending and like Marvel isbeginning and what have you.
But it's interesting nonetheless.
Brent:
[43:07] Is there another example that comes to mind that you haven't touched on before in a public setting?
Connecting with Chemistry and Finding Passion in the Work
Bryan:
[43:16] PARTICIPANT Most of the stuff that I've explained in a public setting is what I thought people would get.
So, I'm trying to- I can't think of something right now that would go over to viewers easily or listeners.
Brent:
[43:29] PARTICIPANT Yeah, fair.
Keller:
[43:29] PARTICIPANT Yeah. And you clearly have like a deep connection with chemistry.
It's something that moves you and something you have a lot of passion for within the scope of chemistry series at Davis and at large at other universities, students might have a tendencybecause of the difficulty to kind of dissociate themselves from the work.
Do you have any advice for students on how to connect to the work and try to, not only take ownership, but try to find passion for it, even if it isn't something that they see a career in?
Bryan:
[44:02] I found two things that are helpful. I don't know if it's helpful for all students, but one is figuring out where does this subject apply? Like where might I see it in the future?
Or even if it's not gonna be an area that I'm studying, where could somebody see this area in the future? and then also...
Does every step of it make sense or is there still some question marks or unknowns that you're not quite sure about?
In that case I would say go see a grad student the faculty member and help piece those things together.
I say in gen chem There's nothing really crazy complicated Everything a student should be able to understand Maybe it takes a different explanation or a couple tries, but something youcan get.
And I think that's also helpful. When you understand it, it makes it a little more enjoyable.
Brent:
[44:57] Yeah. And then real quick, I wanted to jump back to one of the ideas between science and God.
Do you think if more researchers or PhDs, like grad students, took that analytical, scientific approach to investigating religion, they would come out more religious or less religious?
Bryan:
[45:20] I mean, I would vote for somebody to always take the scientific method regardless.
I think they would come out more well-informed regardless. So it is instead of tossing an idea to the side and saying, oh, that's just mystical or that's just religion, or science is completelyagainst that, to say, okay, what can, you know, how can I study this?
Or how can I take a look at it? Knowing that it's not empirical science.
So I'm not gonna make a table or a graph or fit it to equation, but every area of science has its own, or every area, every subject has its own method of proof.
So philosophy's gonna be totally different than the area of science.
But if you take a philosophical concept, is it like consistent? Does it explain things?
Can it walk through? Or sometimes religions, if you will, might have a method of proof. You know, if there's a God, God better show up or something like that.
You know, it's on God to do that.
But I would encourage people to investigate and see where they come out of their investigation rather than writing it off before you start.
Because for me, to write something off before looking at it, that's the most unscientific thing you could do.
Brent:
[46:43] Yeah. Do you think that's a theme within science right now?
Of just writing things off in general that maybe seem a little far out there, whether it's religion or a novel scientific thought or new way of doing things.
Bryan:
[46:58] It could be if you have a favorite, you know, a favorite idea that you're really sticking to, it can be hard to take on a new idea.
And that's probably true for a lot of folks to take on something new or to acknowledge, oh, I might have been wrong or not fully right with my way of thinking, that can take somehumility to do that. Definitely.
Brent:
[47:19] Yeah.
Keller:
[47:19] I think we definitely have heard examples of professors studying some niche thing and the journals had already made their decision on the route that the science was going.
Bryan:
[47:28] Right.
Keller:
[47:29] And it took time, years, decades for them to be like, oh, well, maybe we should acknowledge this and let this paper in and open up that conversation for the fact that we might havebeen wrong and there might be this whole new world out there.
Bryan:
[47:41] There. Sure, almost as a thing of human nature.
Keller:
[47:46] And then as we part, do you have any advice for students?
I think we covered a lot about the chemistry aspect of it, but just kind of broadly going through college, maybe even high school, about how they should approach learning.
Engaging with an expert for better understanding
Bryan:
[48:04] Yeah, I think, I mean, if it's a class, I would encourage you to engage with your instructor, teaching assistant, whoever you have available.
It's always good to talk to an expert and have them help process things through.
At the same time, learning a new subject, just like anything, basketball, swimming, whatever, you got to do your drills.
You got to do them over and over and that kind of helps you.
Music, same thing. You got to play your scales. You You gotta do some of those basic things to really ingrain it in your memory.
Brent:
[48:39] Certainly. Well, thank you so much.
Bryan:
[48:42] Yeah.