Dewi Cahya Ambarwati
Description: Dewi Cahya Ambarwati is a Professor of Arts and Cultural Management in the Department of Languages at Gadja Mada University in Indonesia. Her work spans across many facets of Indonesian culture, looking at how media, discourse, religion, tourism and art intersect with the development of cultural identity. In this episode Professor Dewi highlights the importance of tolerance in Indonesia given the diversity of religions and ethnic groups. We also touch on the intertwining of local cultures and religions, particularly in practices like Wayang, the traditional puppet show. Lastly, we dive into the delicate balance between tourism and preservation of Indonesian culture.
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[0:00:00] Episode Background Information
[0:01:30] Yogyakarta: A Vibrant Cultural Hub
[0:02:30] The Tamasari: Perfumes and Pools for the Sultan
[0:04:00] Touring Through a Small Town
[0:05:00] Malioboro Street: Symbolic Journey from Life to Death
[0:06:00] Tuesday: Exploring Prambanan Temple and Hindu Epics
[0:07:30] Cultural Exchange: Students and Locals at the Temple
[0:08:00] Wayang Workshop: Building Traditional Shadow Puppets
[0:11:00] Traditional Dance Performance and Batik Workshop
[0:13:00] Wayang Kulit: Shadow Performance and Cultural Experiences
[0:16:00] Exploring Hari Dono's Political Sculptures
[0:18:00] Cultural relevance of puppets in history
[0:20:00] Traditional dinner and wayang kancil puppet show
[0:22:00] Sustainable Farm Equipment at the Biennale
[0:25:00] Babysitting Juna and Heartwarming Farewell
[0:27:00] Conclusion of the Trip and Plans for Future Travels
[0:28:00] Introduction and Interest in Indonesian Culture and Dance
[0:31:00] Syncretism and Cultural Practices in Indonesia
[0:32:00] Introduction to the History of Wayang
[0:38:00] The Evolution of Puppet Coloring and Performances
[0:39:00] Introduction to Wayang Kulit and Wayang Wong
[0:42:00] Learning the art of character portrayal in Wayang Wong
[0:44:00] Varied process of becoming a Wayang Wong performer
[0:50:00] Preserving Indonesian Culture for the Younger Generation
[0:52:00] Students' Contributions and Publication of Stories
[0:54:00] Broadcasting and Internship Programs in Brazil and Holland
[0:56:00] Community-based Tourism and Changes in Traditional Arts
Unedited AI Generated Transcript
Keller:
[0:03] Hey, I'm Keller Kramer, co-host of Discovering Academia.
Brent:
[0:06] And this is Brent.
Keller:
[0:08] So this episode is with Dewi Cahya Ambarwati, and we're going to give a little bit of background as to how we got to this interview before we get into it. So right now we're studying in the National University of Singapore for the fall of 2023. One of the classes we're taking is called Beyond the Frame, studying traditional and and performative art in Southeast Asia, primarily Indonesia.
It's called Beyond the Frame because a lot of the art is beyond traditional painting and looking a lot more at performative dancing and things of that nature.
We look a lot at textiles, which are called batik, different temples and different forms of performative art, such as the Wayan Wong, which is a dance, Wayan Kulit, which is a shadow puppet show, and the gamelan, which is a traditional music ensemble.
After each lecture, we would go and play the gamelan for about an hour.
Yogyakarta: A Vibrant Cultural Hub
Keller:
[1:20] Part of the trip included a week-long field trip to Georgia, Jakarta, the cultural hub of Indonesia on the island of Java, which which is the same island of Jakarta, just the capital.
There was street art everywhere, a very vibrant nightlife, and you could see the mix of traditional and modern art everywhere.
We'll walk you through our trip day by day and explain what we learned.
Brent:
[1:40] Yep, so we started off on Monday by going to a place called the Taman Sari, which is tr anslated into the perfumed garden.
It's where the Sultan had his garden and bath house.
And the Sultan is like the regional leader.
The Tamasari: Perfumes and Pools for the Sultan
[1:56] Throughout a lot of the Tamasari there were a lot of flowers and they did performances there for the Sultan.
They also had two bathing areas like pools and one for like all the mistresses and the women and then one separate just for the Sultan himself.
And the interesting part of that was because it was a long time ago they didn't have like chemical perfumes and lotions, they would use these flowers for like to smell better.
So, off the sides of the pools, there was flowers where they would burn them.
And when the women got out of the pool, they would stand next to like these flowers and burning and so they could just smell like that before they get dressed again and go back out andlive their life.
[2:45] One really interesting part of it was the The architecture of the Tomasari was very heavily influenced from both Hindu, Muslim, and Christian backgrounds.
And it kind of just speaks to the overall culture in Indonesia being very multicultural.
I think there's over 300 different indigenous people there, or types of groups, and many more languages.
And then for a long part of their history, they're very religious, but had a mix and co-existed across these different religions very well.
And the Sultan himself was Muslim, but he still used all these different religions when building his own garden.
Touring Through a Small Town
[3:30] Another part of it that was pretty interesting was the fact that the tour, when it left the building, went through this tiny neighborhood.
And we even had to walk through someone's backyard as they were gardening.
And all the shops were lined up along the tour's path, which just made us really think about how this small town really had to cater to the tourists for a lot of their economic growth.
And afterwards, on Monday, once we were finished at the Tomasari, we met up with some local students. They were actually some of Dewi's students.
Malioboro Street: Symbolic Journey from Life to Death
[4 :04] And they go to the Gajah Mada University, which is at the main university in Yogya.
And Yogya is the abbreviation for Yogyakarta. And we went through this main street called Malioboro, And the street's interesting because it connects not directly, but geographicallyin line with the mountain and then the Cretan, which is where like the leader of the Sultan lived, and then the ocean.
And that has like cultural relevance because the mountains are holy and they're viewed as like the birth.
And then you kind of walk down Malioboro, the street, which is like life's path.
And the Cretan where the Sultan lived is kind of like the idea of like at your height of life, your jobs, the peak of living.
And then going down to the ocean was kind of seen as like the final steps towards death.
And this was all explained to us by the students there while we were walking around looking at shops and like the nightlife.
And it was really cool just to like talk to them because when we're talking about the different cultures, of the students there, they're exactly the same types of students that we have backhome and that was just really fun to see.
Tuesday: Exploring Prambanan Temple and Hindu Epics
Keller:
[5:28] Yeah. So, Tuesday was the temple day. We went to a few different temples, but I'm only going to focus on the main one we went to, which was Prambanan.
It's a famous Hindu temple in Georgia, Karta, and we walked through for about two hours with a guide.
We got to see the two major Hindu epics wrapping around the main building and just seeing how those stories unfold.
Brent:
[5:40] Yeah, the epics were carved into the stone, like kind of pictures depicting different little snapshots from the whole story as you walked around.
And you walked around in a clockwise manner.
Keller:
[5:55] Yeah. And it was a ton of fun. Like, obviously, the story is related to what we learned in class.
But one of the more interesting parts was seeing certain images that were points of contention for the storyline.
So, there's one where it's a woman getting dragged and the story isn't clear if she's going with the person dragging her, if she's getting kidnapped.
And just we talked about that in class, but seeing it in person and seeing why it isn't necessarily clear was really interesting.
And as we're walking around it was also really nice to see a local Javanese school there and they were kind of just in awe of our class and just really excited to see us.
It kind of seemed like they hadn't seen a group of Chinese and white people in a long time if ever.
Brent:
[7:43] Yeah they were like grade school level kids like ages roughly around 10 to 12.
Keller:
[7:48] Yeah and they were running up to us asking our names trying to take selfies with us and they thought it was the funniest thing ever and it just kind of made our made our morning.
Cultural Exchange: Students and Locals at the Temple
Keller:
[6:47] And then another part was we got to see two local Hindus practicing at the temple and that really allowed it to go full circle to see how the tourism applied to this cultural area, howthe stories applied, but also how people are really living this life and you know it is a part to them that matters to their religion.
Wayang Workshop: Building Traditional Shadow Puppets
Brent:
[7:07] And then on Wednesday, we started off the day with a wayang workshop with a local artist named Subandi.
And the wayang workshop was building the puppets for the wayang.
So that's part of the wayang kulit, which is shadow puppet. And they're made out of animal hide and they take metal tools and punch out the skin and then cut it and then paint it and put it on sticks. And we have to make those with the artist there. He has been, his family has been doing it for multiple generations now.
And he himself has branched out into making art that uses traditional motifs and techniques and symbols, but does it now in the frame.
Does it on paintings and more modern techniques to bridge that gap of modern art and traditional art and to spread the Javanese culture beyond just the island itself.
Interview with Subandi: Exploring the Meaning behind his Art
[8:14] And we actually got to talk to him for about 10, 15 minutes alone in his studio.
And hopefully we'll be able to release the video of us interviewing him about it.
[8:22] And he just broke down some of the art, why he chose certain things, and really got an appreciation for what he's trying to do with his artwork there.
A Fun and Artistic Visit to the Studio
[8:30] Afterwards, once we left his studio, and his studio was literally his house with a studio attached in an area where people come over and do studio classes, and it's in the middle of aneighborhood too.
And it was really, really fun to be there, and they actually had some people playing instruments too while we were making the puppets.
But after we left, Keller and I walked around the town a little bit, got some food, hopped into some different art galleries in the area, because like Keller was mentioning earlier, just thewhole place is full of art, music, and everyone just seems to be doing cultural activities.
And that was really fun too, because we got to see more art that again, blended modern and traditional Javanese techniques.
And after that, I went to a wayang arang, which is, wayang basically means performance, and then the wrong part means like the people dancing. So they have the puppet version and thenthe people dancing version.
And that one was really, really cool to see because they are, and Dewey actually performs in that too, which we will talk about during the episode.
Traditional Dance Performance and Batik Workshop
[9:40] But they dance like so elegantly like puppets. And a lot of their movements are based on that, but it just adds an extra element seeing people there doing it and then at that performance, they have the music going, the people dancing, and then in this one they actually had some people talking too.
So it was a lot of fun to actually see that style performed.
Keller:
[10:10] Yeah and then Thursday we went back to that same Batik workshop that we'd gone the other day and actually got some of our own Batik and we got to do a a workshop with theclass where we're making our own.
And the version that me and Brent did was called Batik Tulas, which is one of the more traditional forms. There's about five forms, but that was the one that appealed to us the most.
Brent:
[10:25] It's the handmade form.
Keller:
[10:28] Yeah. And you started off by penciling in the design on cloth, which for them, they gave us a very clean outline, luckily.
And then they have a pot of hot wax.
And you have this kind of pencil with a, I guess like a little pot reservoir that you fill with a dye.
Brent:
[10:50] Almost like you're watering plants.
Keller:
[10:53] Yeah. And you have to carefully kind of drip it off to where it's not flowing too much, but also not too light.
And then you slowly go through the dye and it took us a long time and we both had to get ours assisted by the people that worked there.
And just watching how quickly they move compared to us was very, very impressive.
Brent:
[11:10] Some needed more assistance than others.
Wayan Kulit: Shadow Performance and Cultural Experiences
Keller:
[11:13] Yeah, that's Brent for reference. But anyway, so then we got, we finished that and in the same studio, they have the dyeing and the entire process being done.
So, we got to walk over, watch them dye it, pick the colors we wanted, watch them dry it, and then you see them remove the wax and throw it away.
They have this massive pot of wax of all different colors, which is...
Brent:
[11:34] Yeah, they can reuse the wax like four or five times before they have to throw it away. Yeah.
Keller:
[11:39] So, then they finish it up for you and, you know, it looks very pretty, very nice souvenir to have. And then we kind of walked around the area a little bit and got to see they have thebatik cap, which is a different form of the batik that's more of a stamp.
And so, it's still using the same wax, but they have much more intricate patterns interlaced. It's kind of like etching almost in a way.
And they would put it on to dye on clothes and mass-produce it.
So that was very enjoyable. And it was nice to kind of go full circle back there.
And then that night, we went to the Wayan Kulit, which is the shadow performance.
And it goes from like around 10 PM was when we showed up. And it goes till 4 in the morning. It goes very late.
And there are community events. There were people from all ages, whether it be early teens to people in their 80s, all there enjoying it.
And they weren't necessarily family. It was just a thing that genuinely people of all ages enjoyed going to.
One of the more interesting things that Brent saw was a chicken being sacrificed.
Brent:
[12:40] Yeah. I didn't see it actually being sacrificed, but the gong in the Gamelan, which is like the musical ensemble, is like the most sacred instrument they have.
So, next to it, they put offerings. And then, so the gong player in the middle of the performance was like feeding the chicken bread, and then our teacher was telling us how that chicken'sactually supposed to be a sacrifice at the end of the show.
Keller:
[13:04] Yeah. And then the people that are performing are all wearing the traditional batik and they have different amounts of accessories based on essentially their rank within thecommunity.
Brent:
[13:14] Yeah. And also different patterns. Yeah.
Keller:
[13:15] And different patterns. So it's really cool to kind of see some of those not religious, but cultural symbols that we had talked about in class represented by people wearing them.
And then we luckily, we were about to leave in order grab back when we stumbled into this old man and got talking with him and he seemed to really like us.
So we ended up staying for another hour and a half and talking to him and learning about his story.
And he actually played in the wine coulis for the, uh, Kraton, which is the Sultan's palace, as well as was a tour guide for the, what was it? The Taman.
Brent:
[13:54] The Tamansari.
Keller:
[13:55] Tamansari.
Brent:
[13:58] Yeah, Yeah, that was cool because that performance we were at was actually at the Kraton, which is a little bit less common. They do it in a bigger production.
They can do it in people's houses and wherever they want to do it.
Yeah, one of the more interesting parts for me was just the fact that you had all ages, but it was so casual despite being at like this palace and people come and go, like we were saying, wewere able to have conversations in the back, like the six hour show, but they have like comedic breaks in the middle to keep the entertaining and people, you can be on your phone, peopleare smoking cigarettes in the back.
It wasn't overly formal to everyone, but to some it was definitely a much more formal event.
Keller:
[14:44] Yeah, and we watched it from the back, which is what is now commonplace.
So you watch it looking at all the performers as they go, but originally you'd watch it from the front and only see the shadows.
But then as people kind of, as it became more popular and more normalized, like people wanted to see the entire performance because that's really where it becomes very impressiveseeing the, you know, it was probably 60 people at least.
All doing their own thing, all making the entire part of the whole. Hundreds of puppets.
Keller:
[15:12] Yeah, hundreds of puppets. And it was just very intricate. And even there was an English translator and initially we're like, oh, that's nice. It was very convenient.
About an hour we realized she's typing it in real time as the performance is going, trying to make it appealing to the audience that was there.
Brent:
[15:26] Yeah, and especially from my background from the West, it was a little hard to be overly entertained by the puppet show from the backside of it.
But when we went and we walked around to the side where it was only the puppets and it became, I could see how it was a more entertaining show in that aspect because it felt like moreof a story that you would watch on TV, which is something I'm much more used to.
Whereas you got a full appreciation for all the details that go into the show from watching from the back.
But it was fun to be able to walk around to be able to see both sides of it.
Exploring Heri Dono's Political Sculptures
[16:00] So then Friday we went to this artist whose name is Harry Dono and he's one of the more prominent Indonesian artists and we actually went to his studio and walked around.
He does a lot of sculptures and a lot of them have political messages involved in it.
Some of the puppets that he made like had masks after the pandemic.
Other ones was like students typing away just kind of showing that they're not really thinking in class.
We got to see some artwork that he's currently working on, which I can't give a lot of details on, but it's some very prominent political figures around the world being kind of made fun of.
And overall, that was just great to see a lot of his work because it basically became just a museum just for his work and you got to see how his style was very present throughout the entirething.
It's actually really cool because there's like foot pedals where you go and step on it near whatever art piece you're near and it lights up, music plays and the puppets or whatever the actualpiece was like moves around a little bit and it's very interactive.
A lot of the faces were pretty disturbing from our perspective, a lot of it purposely so, but also
Cultural relevance of puppets in history
Lot of those disturbing faces have cultural relevance in like history on the island too.
So the puppet, it matches some of the puppets and matches some of the other prominent stories that have been told there.
[17:30] And then later that night we went to the community center where Dewi holds a lot of classes and community events along with like the rest of the community.
And we did a wayang orang workshop where that's the dance performance.
And I was actually Rama, which was was the king in this story.
The basic storyline was his wife got captured and then when she returned, he needed to test her purity.
So he burned her and then she made it out of the fire unscathed, proving her purity, and then they got remarried.
So we did that dance and it was really fun because we got a very, very minor costume and they taught us the technique.
And to imagine doing that for hours on end, like 20 minutes was already hard to dance and keep the right postures. And it's just so impressive that they do that for hours on end.
Keller:
[18:35] Yeah, and for reference, like the posture is you don't move your shoulders essentially at all while you're moving and you're moving entirely on your tiptoes.
Brent:
[18:45] And then Keller was actually my monkey servant warrior.
Keller:
[18:47] Monkey warrior. Yeah.
Traditional dinner and wayang kanceil puppet show
Brent:
[18:49] Servant. But he, basically when I walked out as the king, I had behind me like all of my little monkey army and they're the ones who like helped me because like my wife on theother side of the stage had her group of women with her as well.
So, there was probably around like 30 or 40 dancers, and it was our class from NUS, and then Dewey's students, who are first years at her university.
So that was a lot of fun, and afterwards we ate dinner together, it was fun, it was cool because like, it was very like traditional set up for dinner, just huge buffet table in the middle, andthen we all just sat on the floor and ate together.
Probably some of the best Indonesian food we had that entire trip, in my opinion.
And then after that, we did a wayang kancil, which is another puppet.
So, kulit is the puppet, the shadow puppet, but kancil specifically means animal puppets.
And these ones are typically used for children to like tell like fables and get kind of moral messages across the children.
And we did that. The class played gamelan, which is the brass.
Is it brass?
Keller:
[22:00] Yeah, it's brass.
Brent:
[22:42] The class played the gamelan, which is the brass music ensemble.
Probably the closest thing that I knew of would probably be like a xylophone and that type of thing I did in grade school, just like a reference.
And it was about a 20 minute live show that we live streamed on YouTube.
Hopefully we'll be able to find the link and attach it here.
But that was great and just, it was so fun to have all the students watching us, probably making fun of us for how bad we were.
And then the NUS students playing and then Dewey's father was actually the puppet master on that show.
Keller:
[20:45] And then Saturday we went to a Biennale art collective, which for us in Kapos, we went to four different villages throughout the morning and seeing how different artists wereworking on various installations.
When we first got there, there was a group that had just flown in from Thailand to explain their art collective.
And then we went to the second one, which was more focused on agriculture.
And for me, that was one of the more interesting ones. It was at a rice field.
And the guy there was building this massive, like, circle, essentially.
It's like a ferris wheel. Like a wheel, yeah. They were going to use for rice cultivation.
And again, reality, it wasn't a very practical thing to use in a farm, but it was just kind of interesting to see the art actually implemented in the field, whereas a lot of the stuff we had seenearlier was meant to be distinct from the environment.
Sustainable Farm Equipment at the Biennale
Brent:
[21:34] And I think there was a huge emphasis on this for it to be very sustainable, very, although like not overtly practical, like a typical farm equipment, there was some use for a lot ofthe different pieces we saw.
And they wanted it to be able to last longer than the actual event itself.
So they didn't want to just come in and make this thing and just be useless after the five day or however long the biennale was.
Could be use cases for a lot of these different things beyond just the event.
Keller:
[22:00] Yeah. And the last place we went to, we got to see the installation actually being put up in real time.
And that was just kind of cool after having gone to so many different museums and studios, seeing how intentional they were about how they were setting up up certain things and thepositioning they were using for that.
And then that night we went and did a recording with Dewey. So we drove back out. We got there early.
And where we did the recording, where the gun lawn was, was this community center.
And so we got to talk with the guy that ran the radio for that area, as well as the main treasure for the area.
And it was just really fun to hang out. They didn't know who we were really at all. We just said we were here for Dewey and they immediately took us in.
Brent:
[22:45] Yeah. It helped us out and started up conversations. You were kind asking about what we're doing, like why we're there and just curious.
Keller:
[22:52] Yeah, so that was a lot of fun. Then Dewey showed up with her son, Juna, and we made our way into the Gamelan room to do the recording.
So, we did the recording in the same room that there was the performance and the show or the recording itself was a little bit messy.
Yeah, a little chaotic. Which we'll talk a little bit about later, but it was just a lot of fun to do the recording in a different setting.
I think every time we've done it, we've done it in a professor's room, yeah, office or conference room.
Brent:
[23:20] And this time we're on the floor of a music studio. Yeah.
Keller:
[23:23] And it was a lot more fitting for, for the conversation.
And once we wrapped that up, we went back outside and got to talk with the same group of men as well as some other ones that were there who were just playing cards, enjoying thecommunity. Yeah.
Brent:
[23:40] This little community was part of like Yogya is a major city, but this was way on the outskirts about like 30 40 minutes outside of the where we were staying with as a class andYou could tell immediately when we got there Especially when it's just me and Keller with the podcast equipment and like just two white guys walking around it we did not stand in likeeveryone's staring at us and we go down like a small little dirt road and it's all these houses and then the community center and that was it. It was cool to just get off the beaten path and where all the tourists were and just kind of get a little bit more integrated into what their local life was.
Keller:
[24:22] Yeah. And then after that, we went and got dinner with Dewey's father and mother, which was a ton of fun.
Took us a while to get there because Brent couldn't fit in the car.
So, we had to get a Grab, which is their version of Uber. And by the time we got to the restaurant, they were actually closed or sold out of food for the night, rather.
So, we went down the street a little bit to this really small shop vendor.
It was a cart, essentially.
Brent:
[24:40] He cooked on a cut-open propane tank. So, they cut open a propane tank, put coals in it, and then a wok-style pan, and that's what the entire restaurant's food was cooked on. Yeah.
Keller:
[24:50] So, we had some traditional food there, which was, I think, also one of our favorite meals of the whole trip.
And it was just a real privilege to get time to sit down and talk to them about, you know, their family's history, why they love the arts and what the arts mean to the community as a whole. And then after dinner, we went back to Dewey's house.
And again, Brent could fit in the car. So, he went back to the community center with Dewi to get the podcast equipment. And I went to her house and babysat her son, Juna, for a littlebit.
Babysitting Juna and Heartwarming Farewell
Did some reading and got to watch Indonesian Spongebob, which was a true pleasure.
And then as we left, we stayed a little bit later, had coffee with her father and then their nephew, I think.
Brent:
[25:42] Yeah, some other family members.
Keller:
[25:43] Their nephew and some other family members came over and we stayed till midnight.
Brent:
[25:44] Probably, yeah.
Keller:
[25:46] And then as we left, it was really cute. Juna gave us this handshake where, standard handshake, and then he took our hands and put it up to his head as a sign of endearment.
Brent:
[25:53] They press his hand our hands against his cheek Yeah.
Keller:
[25:55] And that was just very cool and very cute. Yeah. He called us Mas Keller and Mas Brent.
Conclusion of the Trip and start of Podcast with Dewi
Brent:
[26:04] So that was basically, oh no, yeah, so that was basically the end of the trip with the class after about a week long there.
Sunday we basically just flew home and planned our next bit of little travels, which you all will see later, hopefully.
Overall though, just bear with us in this episode. It's a bit different of a format than we typically do.
Jun and her son was was quite rambunctious in the background during the recording.
So I'm sure you'll hear instruments being played.
He'll make a guest appearance a couple of times.
He even locked us in the building we were in. He went outside and then somehow managed to lock us in there.
So there'll be a lot more breaks, edits, but stay tuned because it's a lot of fun to hear about what she's done.
And she even sings for us, which is like, the singing would be like part of the traditional dance performances.
And with that being said, here is the episode with Professor Dewey of Gajah Mata University. We hope you enjoy.
Brent:
[27:11] Welcome, Professor Dewi, thank you for coming on today.
Dewi :
[27:13] Thank you for having me. Mas Brent and Mas Keller are here to this podcast.
Keller:
[27:14] We'd love to start off by hearing a little bit more about your story.
What got you interested in studying Indonesian culture and dance?
Dewi:
[27:27] Yes, one thing is that I'm an Indonesian and there are a lot of mysteries about Indonesia, especially I live in Jogja, I live in Java Island, and I still see the Jogja Java still mystery.
A lot of stories that have not been investigated or explored.
Brent:
[27:40] Do you, have you always viewed it as a mystery or was it, did it become more mysterious after you started studying it?
Dewi :
[27:50] Before I studied, yeah, because I'm a Japanese, it's my everyday life here, being a Japanese, because in Indonesia, it's not a homogeneous country.
Yeah, Yeah, it's very diverse and it's been my obsession to travel across Indonesia and it's not easy for me just to travel from one place to another place because it's quite big.
And I think each part of Indonesia has its own stories and narratives and also features that I think intrigues researchers to study more. Yeah.
Tolerance in Indonesia
Keller:
[28:30] And on that diversity, can you talk a little bit about the tolerance in Indonesia, both cultural and religious?
Dewi :
[28:35] Yes, that is a very good question about this. Yeah, when we talk about Indonesia, we, some people will think of conflicts.
And I think the conflicts that shape us to be stronger.
Why? Because with the conflicts, with the tolerance, the issues of tolerance here, We study more about ourselves and why does it happen?
Because Indonesia itself has more than 17,000 with names and more like 15 or 16,000 islands without names and ethnic groups and diverse languages.
And when we talk about one society, one ethnic group, it has more. Communities. And when we talk about tolerance, yeah, not only about religion, but also the ethnicities too.
We have six acknowledged religions or official religions.
Yeah. They're actually world religions, Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.
They're actually world religions.
Brent:
[29:44] Yeah.
Dewi :
[29:42] And we have local religions, because like I said before, we have ethnic groups, Yeah, like so many, and then local practices are still being practiced by the locals, but they're notrecognized as a world religion, I mean, official religions by the states, by the governments, and that's why tolerance must be embedded.
So, we must embody what tolerance is, because in one place, it's not homogeneous.
You can meet, you can see people with different backgrounds.
Syncretism and Cultural Practices in Indonesia
[30:17] It's like in Yogyakarta, some people say that Yogyakarta is the miniature of Indonesia. Yeah, so you can meet people in Indonesia. You can find people from Sabang, from Aceh to Papua here, with all different religions in here.
Brent:
[30:40] And then we were reading one of your papers and talking about the mixing or respecting of both of the local culture and their religion and how they kind of separate that.
Could you talk about maybe briefly explain like what wayang is and then how people's religions and like cultures are like expressed in that?
Dewi :
[31:00] Yeah, the cultural setting in Indonesia, the tradition, the culture is not only shaped by our own local identities, but also the foreign influences, yeah.
And one of the foreign influences is the world religions, yeah.
But then when they are here, yeah, they are here, they also interact with the local practices.
So that's why syncretism emerges. Yeah. Yeah, it's very syncretic.
And we also have acculturation, assimilation here about the cultures.
And we go over the religions and the culture, so they're intertwined.
[31:43] Pros and cons, it's been debatable about the issues, yeah.
Some people separate religions, some people separate, put them together, like combines.
We talk about culture, yeah, each religion has its own culture too.
But yes, I can see that the syncretic practices in Indonesia, especially in Java, because we are here in Java, in Yogyakarta, yeah, we can see from the artifacts that we have to learn from thehistory, yeah, because religions came later.
Because they have their own local practices. But then, what religions came, starting with the Hinduisms, the Buddhisms, yeah. And along with the wayang.
Yeah, the wayang or the puppets, the stories. Because when we talk about stories that are taken from, to perform some of the performing arts here.
Mostly from Ramayana and Mahabharata epics. They're originally not from Java, from Indonesia, but they're from India.
Yeah. Yeah. And then they spread out, yeah, to some other areas, yeah.
Introduction to the History of Wayang
[33:00] And when people here, well, we have four kingdoms, yeah, and then the kingdoms were embracing Hinduism, Buddhism, yeah, but then Islam came.
We still have the wayang. So, wayang was used by the, let's say, the Muslim saints, if you ever heard of it, the nine Muslim saints, yeah, some of them, they were using the wayang todisemminate Islam.
Okay. So, that's the story. But there's always a but, yeah.
They made some modifications of the wayang so that they wouldn't look similar to humans.
So, they made them like, what do you call them, not two-dimensional puppets, not three-dimensional, two-dimensional puppets, only front and behind.
And then the longer arms, longer nose and everything that really like, they're not humans, they don't look like humans.
So it's fine because we cannot make something that, what do you call this, similar to humans. Yeah.
Brent:
[34:10] Okay. Is, is, and that's in Islam or?
Like you can't replicate a human, is that like an Islamic rule?
Dewi :
[34:20] Yes, yes, yes. And so, that's why the Muslim saints, they created that way, such puppets, yeah.
And then they used the puppets, so they don't, like, they did not put them away, throw them away, but they were using them because, I'm talking about marketing here.
Yeah. This is really obvious that if they want to, if you want to disseminate something that you need to get to know the market, yeah, the area that you need to, where you are and whatyou need to do to work it out, right?
And then people before they embraced Islam, they were not Muslims, right?
[35:05] So, they would embrace other religions. So, that's why the saints, the Muslim saints, they were using it, just to approach them.
But until today, now we understand that wayang can also be perceived from the perspective of Islam too, because of the values that have been incorporated or inserted by the saints.
Brent:
[35:30] Okay. So, was wayang here before Islam came? Yeah. Okay.
Dewi :
[35:43] Yeah. But then it got modified. Yeah.
Brent:
[35:47] And then real quick, just for the listener, it's a shadow puppet is like the translation, right? The shadow puppet show?
Dewi :
[35:52] Wayang. Shadow is wayang and kulit is leather. Okay.
And yeah, Wai Yang, that means shadow, because...
We, like, not now, yeah, not now, like, in the past we watched, we saw wayang from behind the screen, so we were not able to see the puppeteer or the players. Yeah.
Keller:
[36:20] Could you talk a little bit about why that's shifted and where now more people will watch kind of what would be considered from the back and see the performances and the performers? Yeah, like I said before, it's wayang, yeah, so people see the shadow because we have to be able to see our own shadow, right?
And in the past, we were not able to see the puppets or anything at the puppeteer, but then more offers, more things to see. And the puppet performance, it is a performance. So, we, a lot of things that can be offered by a puppet performance.
Now, not only about the people wants to see the art, no, no, the the players, yeah, how young and how they dress up and also the singers, yeah, but also the work of the puppeteers, yeah, playing the movements and then, what is it? Can we stop?
Brent:
[10:04] Yeah, it's okay.
Dewi :
[37:10] Where was I?
Brent:
[37:15] Just briefly explaining why the shift is going to looking at it from behind.
Dewi :
[37:20] Yeah, like so many things to offer, yeah? And then the work, the crafting of puppets.
Of puppets, with the colors, with the craft, yeah.
Amazing, and then how they arranged the puppets, the right side to the left side.
Eventually, this is a performance, so not only seeing something behind, only the shadow, not only about the lacon, all the story, but everything, even the beauty of the gomelans.
Brent:
[37:55] Yeah, and those are the musical instruments that sit behind the show, just for the listener.
And, um, also the puppets are made out of it's Buffalo hide, right.
And they're incredibly detailed and painted beautifully.
And earlier this week, we actually got to make it. And yeah, it, the respect for how like hard that is to make and like, cause you'd like use metal tools to punch out the leather and thenpaint it.
Dewi :
[38:11] Right.
Brent:
[38:20] Uh, were they always painted like that beautifully, uh, when people were viewing from the back or from the front?
The Evolution of Puppet Coloring and Performances
Dewi :
[38:28 ] Yes. Yes, but there's been a development, right, once again, coloring the puppets.
Now we have what we call the proto or prada, that's gold paper.
And it's much more expensive, yeah.
Brent:
[38:46] Yeah, that's amazing.
Keller:
[38:47] And then, talking about another type of performance, could you explain some of the dance performances and kind of where religion plays into that? Yeah, okay.
Dewi :
[38:56] Yeah. Right. About the dance drama. Yeah. Wayang Kulit is the source. And then.
Brent:
[39:09] If you hear some noises, her son's playing some of the instruments in the background. I heard. Yeah.
Dewi :
[39:15] I'm so proud of him. Juna, yeah. His full name is Erjunathya.
That will remind him of his mama's experience as the dancer.
Sorry, he's really a stage person.
Brent:
[39:25] He got up yesterday during the performance and showed us some of his work with the puppets. That's okay.
Dewi :
[39:35] He will become a scientist and also a cultural engineer.
Introduction to Wayang Kulit and Wayang Wong
Dewi :
[39:40] And the Wayang Kulit, yeah. So we sourced the dance drama to Wayang Kulit because Wayang Kulit came first.
It appeared first, yeah. And then we have one puppeteer with all the stories and dance drama mostly we take stories from India too, the Ramayana and Mahabharata puppet.
How does it go? Okay, Wayang Kulit and then we have the Wayang Wong.
Wong means human. So it's a human puppet. Yeah, that are played by humans.
So is there a new puppeteer? Of course. So there's a puppeteer and he sits with the gamelan troops.
Along the way, the performance, we also have sequences, we have the order, just like in wayang kulit.
[40:15] I think, yeah, in my point of view, there was like a cultural experiment.
Yeah, because Wayang Wong has been the state ritual in our Islamic kingdom in Yogyakarta, in the Kraton, yeah, as a ritual, a state, yeah, this is ritual, yeah, because the sultan in the past,they, he welcomed, yeah, the guests, yeah, and he would have the performance to welcome all the guests coming to the kraton.
And so the wayang wong, we have dialogues, we have the narratives, we, we need to dance, yeah, we have to be able to dance.
We have to be able to speak high Javanese and puppetry, the puppetry language or we call it, uh, Bahasa Pedalangan.
Pedalangan means puppetry.
Brent:
[41:10] Okay.
Dewi :
[15:32] Bahasa means language, a puppetry language. And most of the puppetry language is taken from the, the old Javanese language is called Kawi.
Brent:
[41:20] Okay.
Dewi :
[41:21] Kawi. Yeah. Maybe some of you may understand that the Kawi derived from the Sanskrit language. So it's, it's not similar to our high Javanese.
Brent:
[41:35] Okay.
Dewi :
[41:36] And then all the performers have to understand the philosophical way of life and of the philosophy of the puppets and then how to do the antawacana.
Antawacana means the dialogue. Yeah. So they do all these things to become the performers of the wayang wong.
But then, time has changed.
There was a lot of developments to this. That the non-performers could speak the language, the puppetry language. Yeah, it's not easy.
And then we have the ballet, the dance drama, the other dance drama.
The ballet, that means without dialogues.
Keller:
[42:16] Yeah.
Brent:
[42:21] Is that the prambanana?
Dewi:
[42:22] Yeah, part of it. Yes, some people would perform the Ramayana Pali and it's easier because they don't need to speak.
Dewi :
[42:30] I don't know because if you um...
If you do the wayang wong, so the attitude, the behavior and doing the wayang wong also different.
For example, how you sit, how you stand, how you move, like when you see the puppets with the sticks.
Keller:
[42:50] Yeah.
Dewi :
[42:52] Yeah. All source to the wayang kulit.
Brent:
[42:55] Yeah.
Dewi :
[43:00] A nd even the voice, yeah, because there are some, there are characteristics.
There are characters in Javanese wayang wong that differs one character to other characters.
So, if you cannot do the language, you cannot do the characterization, you cannot do anything of the wayang wong.
So, the next response will be the ballet. So, not all the, any ballet, yeah, or Mabarata or Ramayana ballet, we called it It's Sendra Tariya, Seni, Seni, Drama, Tari.
Seni means arts, Drama is drama, Tari means dance. So, that means there is a drama. It's not only about how to learn or how to express the dance, but there is a story. You are falling there.
Yes, thank you, baby.
Dewi Sings Examples from Wayang Performances
[44:20] Oh, it's Sendra Tariya. So, you call it Sendra Tariya.
This is like, this is an example, I know you need to sing too, you need to sing, you need to be able to sing like...
Kanyoparan This is a song when we have to challenge other characters.
Yeah, and then one other person will also respond with singing.
And then so like dialogue like this.
Learning the art of character portrayal in Wayang Wong
[44:35] Because I also do the male refined characters.
So I do both female and male characters. But for the male characters, I'm doing the refined characters. This is how.
And then for the female character, for example, like Wala topla, topla, topla.
This is for the strong character. But for the refined character, it's I need to speak lower than this.
Oh, like this, um, like this, and we do this, uh, how do you call the voices?
Yeah, different voices. We also need to think to check with the musics, with the notes of the gamelan.
Dewi :
[45:30] This low, this low or this high from the one, the score, the notation one, two, three or four oh okay so you are character eight so this is three this is you your voice and then younumber two this is um your voice this what do you call the pitch yeah the pitch.
Keller: [46:00] How long does it take to become a performer to learn all those things learn the dance movements learnthe philosophy learn the high javanese like do are most of the performers consider like elders and like what does that process look like?
Varied process of becoming a Wayang Wong performer
Dewi:
[46:10] Yeah it varies yeah if you really want to do this and then you want to invest your time and energy doing it you can't because um I also learned I also observe yeah non-indonesiannon-javanese they spend like hours in doing the trainings and they can do it but we are the japanese we also well well every day is my research yeah Every day is a research, because whenI move from one performance to another performance, I see something different.
Even though we have the same stories, we meet the same people, Yeah, in the troops, yeah, a lot of things are different and how they learn, how they train, how they practice and how theyfeel, yeah, difference.
[46:55] That's why learning this is not only in the classroom, because in the classroom we don't have any.
If you go to the School of Arts, they don't really teach you how to become a wayang wong performer or any dance drama performer. So you have to move from one stage to another stage. That's what I did actually.
Just to learn how to put the right makeup, the right eye shadow in my eyes, I have to move from one stage to other stage and then sit next to the dancer.
So this one, okay, for this character, with this color, that color, for this color. And then I have to check on my own face, for example.
I didn't study anatomy, but we had to understand that because we had to know our bodies.
So it will take some time. If you ask me how long, there is no specific duration for you to learn how, because I'm saying that this is learning by doing.
And the more you practice, it's a skill, it's competence, that the competency, skills, they will embrace.
Dewi:
[48:00] What's the next questions should I continuewhat I was just talking oh you can cut it out.
Keller:
[48:10] Do you have any, I mean I think we kind of covered most of that. Yeah.
Brent:
[48:15] And just to clarify, like do most of the people who are researching like yourself like traditional Javanese and like Indonesian culture, are they also performing and playing in theshows like you are?
Dewi :
[48:30] Yes, because here in Indonesia, in Yogyakarta, we also have School of Arts, yeah, and also university campuses that have arts faculties or art departments, but my campus, no.
So I work for Universitas Gajah Mara is a research university, but we don't have any arts faculty, but we have the performing art studies for a master and PhD. However, not, all, Allpractitioners, I mean, I did research on dance, like, academically speaking, yeah. It was just for my dissertations.
Before that, I didn't. So, it was just like, how to say that, like, to give back to my performing arts world. My contributions, because I gained a lot from these fields, yeah.
Yeah, but then I think I needed to do something and then I wrote that as part of my dissertations, even though my major was actually intervalligous studies, but I incorporated the idea ofperformance art inside because that was the case or the field research investigation that I did.
Preserving Indonesian Culture for the Younger Generation
Keller:
[50:00] Yeah. How are you, like, what are some of the ways you're trying to preserve the culture and what do you view on the younger generation and theirconnection to some of these traditional forms of art and, you know, how, ways to get them involved?
Dewi :
[50:06] It's been a challenge for me, yes of course, since I work as a lecturer, I have a channel, I have an access to do it.
Why do I have this kind of idea to preserve is because I think it's my duty to continue.
Because I do that thing, this culture thing.
If I don't do anything about it, maybe I don't have any ideas.
But since that I do, and my family also influences me a lot, even though they didn't ask me to do this thing, but I saw opportunities, yeah, opportunities for me to share what we have toothers.
Because mostly I was quite concerned that non-Indonesian people, they came here to learn, and then they demonstrated our traditions to different audiences, like wider audiences.
And it was like, I was a little bit ashamed and shy because of this. But...
[51:20] I was also lucky that I had this opportunity to work with the performing arts fields.
Yeah. Because as a lecturer, I saw the chances through courses or classes.
I had two courses on Indonesian culture promotions and, oh no, three more, and cross-cultural courses.
Three. And then I thought that if we learned, if the students learned culture, it wouldn't be possible only in the classroom.
And I only had like one semester, 14 meetings per semesters.
And I had to do projects more so that they could really embody what culture means, because I am also concerned that not all young people, they understand their own culture.
They don't even speak their own language, right. They don't really see things culturally speaking. Because when people talk about Indonesia, something that goes first is culture.
Brent:
[52:27] Yeah, it was funny, one of your students told me they don't even own any batik.
Dewi :
[52:29] That happens, yeah. It was also interesting when I did my spontaneous translation project, because I did it for several years. So, I translated Japanese puppets from Japanese toEnglish.
Some people, they understood the story because of my translations.
Brent:
[52:50] Yeah.
Dewi :
[52:51] Yeah. Not the Javanese language.
And then in my classrooms, I have folklore projects.
So it was like, you know, one framework. Yeah. Because I also learned about UNESCO thing.
Yeah. I learned, I started to work on my folklore project. Yeah.
And I ask my students to collect stories because I see that the...
Students' Contributions and Publication of Stories
Dewi :
[53:15]
And I see that my students come from different areas in Indonesia, and it will be very amazing and significant contributions to cultural literacy.
That one student contributes one story from the area. So can you imagine if I have like 33 students in one classroom, that means 33 stories. So I published a book too. Yeah, with their writings. And I had my friends to edit.
Yeah, or maybe someday you can also edit the book, yeah, the volumes.
And this year will be the third edition. The third series.
Dewi :
[54:00] And then I had the digital storytellings with the Kancil stories, but it was during the pandemic. We couldn't go out, yeah?
And then I had the storybooks of Kancil, it was written by Pak Ede and Bu Irene Ritchie from Australia and I used the books for my class projects and then they made their own puppets with the characters and the stories are originally from Indonesia.
And then they had to create the, what's it called? Recorded presentation using technology.
Brent:
[54:33] Yeah.
Dewi :
[54:35] So it's a digital storytelling. So now until today, I had like, I have 20 or 25 videos here for class projects.
And this semester I have two, no, two classes will do the same projects.
And then the other thing is the radio broadcast. Yeah, it's also part of the preservations because the radio broadcast here is aired by the community radio.
I don't do anything commercials here with the radio because commercial radio, they will require more, like they're really demanding if they have the broadcasters or DJs or anything like,and I think my students are not ready for that, that's why I work.
So that's why I work with the radio here Balai Budaya Menomartani to facilitate and then since last year I had a program And then I have five students doing the broadcast.
Then after that, I have my intern student coming from Holland.
She was working on two programs, Global Chain in Indonesia and me.
And then we have three different programs.
Why it's really important? It is part of the Brazilian version of Indonesian culture because this radio, community radio, works more on the cultural values.
Maybe they don't know how to do the cultural skills or artistic skills, but the values will be transferred to the audience.
Brent:
[56:12] Yeah. And do you worry at all about tourism negatively impacting the preservation of Indonesian culture, especially places like Bali?
Dewi :
[56:20] Yes, of course. Tourism does not always make us happy.
Sometimes there are damages, there are some issues, concerns, yeah, about the effect or the consequences of their visits.
Because not all tourists, they're good tourists, and not everybody has a nice attitude.
And when we talk about Bali, it's not the only thing that I'm concerned about.
Because when tourism comes to this area and Yogyakarta is part of the tourist destination that is quite popular in Indonesia. Even though it's not, when we see Yogyakarta, it will bedifferent from the the characteristics of Bali.
They have different lands capes. Yeah. They have different nuance and ambience.
Community-based Tourism and Changes in Traditional Arts
[57:00] Yeah. And when we talk about tourism, then we also talk about the economic wheels, the economic wheels and the practitioners.
We also have the ideas on the community-based tourism still.
I guess when we talk about revenue, we talk about the cultural identity that is marketed for the tourism. Sometimes the what do you call the, I'm not talking, I'm not saying the genuine formats of a particular traditional art, but there is, there are changes.
They are transformed. For example, like a puppet show, normally we have like four hours, five hours, six hours, and then we only have like 30 minutes or 15 minutes only for the sake ofthe tourists.
They don't want to stay longer. They want to to see something quick and fast and then in a very simple presentation.
It's not very maximal, not very optimal.
Brent:
[57:50] Yeah.
Dewi :
[57:51] It's very minimal. It's the thing is that we have that event going on for the purpose.
Yeah. So that's different. And then it's like, there's something that we learned that we experienced, but it also endanger the very identity of the culture itself.
Yeah.
Keller:
[58:15] Yeah. Well, Professor Dewi, it's been a pleasure. Do you have any parting words of advice for students, particularly Indonesian students? Yeah.
Dewi :
[58:26] Before you want to know other foreign culture, so you should know your own.
So, when you start learning, like for example, English language, because when we talk about English language, this is not something that we can learn in the classroom, because when wehave the technology, we have the gadgets, sophisticated ones, all the words, all the terms are in English.
That means you also learn that language. Yeah. Basically, when you learn the language, I mean, you also learn the culture, but it will be more significant if you know yours first, then youget to know other things because you will be having a strong foundation of who you are.
Brent:
[59:07] That's amazing. Thank you so much.
Keller:
[59:08] Thank you.