Elaine Lynn-Ee Ho

Description: Elaine Ho is a Professor in the Department of Geography and Senior Research Fellow for the Asia Research Institute at the National University of Singapore. Her work focuses on the Chinese diaspora in Singapore, transnational migrant identity, and aging in the Asia-Pacific. In this episode, we talk about the evolution of Singaporean identity, longevity in aging societies, and the development of support networks for the migrants who often care for the elderly.

Websites:

NUS Website

Asia Research Institute Website

Publications:

Google Scholar

Constituting Citizenship Through Emotions

Migrant Domestic Workers and the Household Division of Intimate Labour

Show Notes:

[0:00:01] Introduction
[0:05:16] Food Identity in Singapore
[0:10:03] Research Methods and Interactions
[0:16:38] Evolving Singaporean Identity
[0:21:46] Fostering Inclusive Interactions
[0:27:27] Bridging Economic Gaps
[0:28:54] Government Support for Care Workers
[0:31:36] Navigating Inclusion and Isolation
[0:32:53] Workplace Interactions in Singapore
[0:46:16] Positive Interactions Among Grandparenting Migrants
[0:51:10] Shifting Priorities in Aging Immigrants
[0:58:54] Productive Longevity and Aging Society
[1:02:24] Embracing Shared Humanity

Unedited AI Generated Transcript:

Brent:
[0:02] Welcome, Professor Elaine Ho. Thank you for coming on today.

Elaine:
[0:05] Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to speak to the both of you.

Keller:
[0:09] We'd love to start off by hearing a little bit more about your background.
What got you interested in citizen geography and how you ended up at NUS?

Elaine:
[0:16] Okay, how did I end up at NUS? I am a Singaporean, so this is where I did my undergraduate studies.
Then I went overseas to do my PhD and spent a couple of years abroad and eventually decided to come back. So the reason I mentioned this is becauseyou asked what got me interested in my research on citizenship geographies.
And actually, for my PhD research, it was on overseas Singaporean and what the citizenship means to them.
So that PhD project was very much a process of self-discovery as well.
Because when I was younger, I did question, you know, what does citizenship mean in the context of Singapore?
In addition to that, prior to starting my PhD after I finished my undergraduate studies, I worked as a research assistant for my lecturers and their researchwas on migrant domestic workers in Singapore at that time.
So over the years, I've become interested in both immigration as well as emigration flows, people coming in to Singapore and people going out ofSingapore.
And that has very much characterized the kind of research projects I've taken on over the years. So even though they may seem quite diverse in the topicsI've studied, actually they cohere around the idea of citizenship and geography.
As a geographer, I would say the way that we look into these research topics very much centres on geographical concepts around place meanings, flowsacross space through migration.

[1:43] Territory, territoriality, as well as the idea of scale.
So scale refers to levels of analysis ranging from the individual to the family, to the community, the nation state, the region and the global scale.
So I think geographers very much are interested in looking at how migration flows actually cuts across these different levels of analysis.

Brent:
[2:07] Was there anything you particularly learned or came away with about your own citizenship when you started first looking into this?

Elaine:
[2:13] I would say when I was younger, I always thought I would want to live outside of Singapore. And I thought about settling, working overseas.
But strangely enough, in the process of doing my research, the younger kind of Singaporeans whom I spoke to, they were young adults working inLondon.
And they told me that they would want to come back to Singapore. Why? Why?
Primarily because their family is here. And interestingly, that eventually became also the reason why I decided to come back.
So in one of my research papers earlier on, I argued that the family is very much a factor that roots overseas Singaporeans to Singapore.
So this is, as I mentioned earlier, where the skill of the family actually cuts across the national community, the nation state, as well as individualdecisions, the interrelations across how people think about migration and citizenship. ship.

Brent:
[3:04] Certainly. And when looking at Singapore, given it's like a nation state, that's like an island, very small, very diverse, what makes it very unique forstudying these migration patterns?

Elaine:
[3:16] So Singapore is a country that's populated by past and present flows of migrants, right?
So my own family has ancestral roots in China.
There are many Singaporeans, people who call call themselves Singaporeans now, whose families come from India as well.
So that's past migration flows, and they have influenced the way that the Singapore government, the state, and the community thinks about their ownidentity.
So we're a multicultural, multi-religious country.
And what's even more interesting is today, there are these new immigrants coming from the same ancestral countries, India and China, but there are theseaspects of differentiation that Singaporeans have exercised in terms of deciding who belongs to the nation state.
So Singaporeans now have a distinct national identity and they use that as a way of thinking about we belong to the country, these newer immigrants,they have not yet cultivated the same sense of belonging as how so-called locals Singaporeans have.

Keller:
[4:22] And then within Singapore, part of the manifestation of these multicultural experiences is language.
Could you describe the use of Singlish and how that kind of represents that mixture?

Elaine:
[4:31] So Singlish refers to Singaporean English and it's a kind of a mix of languages that have been sort of that includes influences from not just English,but also Mandarin, Malay and some sort of Chinese dialects.
So it's a very unique language.
Amalgamation of languages, because if you listen to us speak, you'll think that we're speaking English, but then there are words in between that you can'treally catch.
So currently I'm not speaking Singlish.
It's still, I think, standard English, but with a Singaporean accent.
So Singlish as a language, I think for Singaporeans, they say it characterizes our sense of national identity.

Food Identity in Singapore

[5:16] Identity and I think other than language, food is also a very sort of a way for Singaporeans to think about how our mixed identities have cometogether.
So if you think about Singapore curry, okay, curry you normally associate with an Indian dish but there is Chinese curry, Chinese Singapore curry, right?
So it uses different kind of spices from Indian curry.
So, curry is seen as a kind of dish that characterizes Singaporean identity as well because it brings in these different cultural influences in the way that wecook the dish.

Brent:
[5:56] Definitely. And then do you have any fun examples of what Singlish looks like in practice?

Elaine:
[6:02] Okay, so let me ask you this. You makan already or not?

Brent:
[6:07] Not today.

Elaine:
[6:08] Oh, well done. You've stayed long enough. So, what did I ask you?

Brent:
[6:11] Did we eat today?

Elaine:
[6:12] Yes, that's right. So makan is actually a Malay word. But if I were to ask the same question to someone who's never been in Singapore, they maynot be able to catch what the question is.
So whereas in Singapore, we recognize the word makan, whether you're Chinese, Malay or Indian, you know makan refers to have you eaten today?
And this is actually a common greeting in Singapore.
When we say, we don't usually say, how are you doing today? We might say, you know, have you had your meal today? Have you eaten today? Yeah.

Brent:
[6:38] And that comes from Chinese, correct? Right. Like the idea of like introducing or like saying hello to someone by saying, have you eaten?

Elaine:
[6:45] I think in Indian families, possibly Malay families, that's also the case.

Brent:
[6:51] Okay.

Elaine:
[6:51] Yeah. So it's really something that ties our Asian identities together.

Brent:
[6:55] Definitely.

Elaine:
[6:56] Because food is just so central to the way we interact with one another.

Brent:
[7:00] Definitely.

Keller:
[7:01] Then when you go about doing this research, like given the multitude of facets that you could decide to focus on for migration, like how do you goabout that process? Thank you.

Elaine:
[7:12] I would say, normally something catches my attention, for example, in the past it was, for instance, through volunteering work.
I used to volunteer with a migrant welfare association many years ago.
Also through reading news articles.
So one of my research projects was on mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants in Singapore.
And interestingly, I first came across this trend when I was reading a news article about mainland Chinese grandparents going to Australia.
And reading that article about Australia then made me think about, hey, there are these similar trends happening in Singapore, but we haven't actuallylooked into it.
So subsequently, I did a research project looking at mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants in Australia and in Singapore to try and think about howthe different migration regimes impact their experiences of living abroad.

Brent:
[8:08] Yeah. And then when you talk about different experiences, identity and assimilation, what are some of the biggest factors at play when people aremigrating?

Elaine:
[8:21] I think when people migrate, it's not just the migrant himself or herself who experiences change.
When migrants come in sufficiently large numbers, the destination country also experiences visible change.
In terms of, for example, if you look at Singapore, we have Little Manila in Orchard Road, that's Lucky Plaza.
We have Little Myanmar at City Hall, which is Peninsular Plaza.
So when migrants come in, the whole society actually can see visible change in terms of the urban landscape, but also through their interactions with themigrants themselves.
So these kinds of interactions, as I've tried to study through my research projects over the years, They may have to do with interactions in the placeswhere Singaporeans reside.
For example, in Singapore, we have public housing flats.
We call them Housing Development Board flats, HDB flats. And that's where the majority of Singaporeans stay.

[9:20] It's also where you can find migrant professionals who are renting in the HDB estates.
But in addition to these migrant professionals, you may also have lower skilled migrant workers, like your migrant domestic workers who are assistingSingaporean households, or even migrant cleaners who are helping to maintain the facilities within the estate, as well as construction workers.
So the experience of migration impacts not only the migrant himself or herself, but the very society where they are residing as well.
So for me, my research on Singapore has very much centred around trying to understand migrant-local interactions.

Research Methods and Interactions

Keller:
[10:04] And do you learn about these interactions through interviews or, as you said, is it news? How do you determine the nature of these interactions?

Elaine:
[10:12] So one source of information is definitely through news reports, social media discussions, etc.
So that's one kind of research method. For myself, I am a qualitative researcher, so I very much enjoy hitting the ground, talking to people themselves.
So many of my research projects involve interviews with different kinds of migrants.
The other thing which I also do is what we call ethnography so ethnographic observations how do people actually interact so it's through a mix ofmethods and then we triangulate the information to try and form a more holistic understanding of the phenomenon that we are studying and.

Brent:
[10:50] Then before we get more into specifics of your research are there any terms that the listeners should be familiar with because i know like is it atalk with any.

Elaine:
[10:59] Yes like and then uh.

Brent:
[11:02] Also like the use of fraternity versus alterity uh what are some of those ideas before we jump into the actual research.

Elaine:
[11:09] Okay so in the projects that i've done on singapore i have other projects that's um on mainland china myanmar etc but i will focus my discussionson singapore here, So one of the key things that characterizes politics of migration in Singapore is this sense of us versus them, the host society or localSingaporeans in the sense of identity and belonging, as compared to migrants who are seen as more recent arrivals.
So autochthony refers to a sense of nativeness. And in the case of Singapore, you'll often find that people use these terms like locals.
Locals meaning Singaporeans who have been born and bred in Singapore, a sense of native identity or associated with it, a sense of belonging as well.
So in the work I've done, I use also fraternity and alterity.
Fraternity refers to people who see themselves as belonging to the same community and alterity refers to the sense of difference or the ways in whichthey try to rationalize exclusions.
And these exclusions can be in the form of exclusion from the right to residency or legal citizenship, but it can also be more less visible forms ofexclusions to do with the way that people interact with one another, right?
So I hope that helps to provide some context for STAT.

Brent:
[12:34] Definitely. And then one other thing, do you ever, did you ever find it surprising?
Maybe not since you are Singaporean, but the fact that this is what a 60 year old country or roughly. And 65.

Elaine:
[12:46] Yeah. That's the year we got independence. Yeah.

Brent:
[12:48] And that there is such strong, like national pride and identity of Singapore. Do you think that, Has that ever been surprising? Because I feel likethat could be surprising to many foreigners who have hundreds or thousands of years of history.

Elaine:
[13:03] Well, as you say, I'm Singaporean, so I've been socialized into this in a sense.
But I think, you know, from a more academic perspective, the strong sense of identity and claims over belonging have not happened by chance.
So from the very beginning, the Singapore government has invested a lot of efforts in creating a sense of national identity, emphasising that thepopulation in Singapore comes from different ethnic groups.
So therefore, we think of ourselves and we practice multiculturalism.
It starts from the time when we go to school. So you learn about other cultures.

[13:43] You learn your own mother tongue. For me, it's Mandarin. You learn English alongside Mandarin.
Actually, now we consider Mandarin our second language. The mother tongue is your second language.
But then the other ethnic groups would learn Malay or Tamil.
So I think from a young age, this has been socialized into our kind of mindsets.
But of course, the very practice of it, you know, is not easy.
There's still room to enhance intercultural understanding amongst the main ethnic groups. So in Singapore, we often use the term CMIO, which refers toChinese, Malay, Indian and other ethnic groups.
That's kind of what we call, you know, the core multicultural identity that we started with.
But I think in more recent years, as the government started to welcome different kinds of immigrants through a managed migration approach, so it'shighly structured, categorized, the kind of visas you can come in depends on your skills, educational levels, the kind of work you do.
So I think, you know, over the years through the Managed Migration Programme, we have seen new immigrants come in and that has actually addedgreater complexity to our multicultural ethos. So can Singaporeans who believe in multiculturalism...

[15:02] They're familiar with, categorized under the CMI or, you know, themes, right?
Can they accept other forms of cultural and ethnic differences?
So one of the key things which I've examined in my research is the co-ethnic tensions that have surfaced because of new immigration.
So co-ethnics referring, for example, so my grandparents came from China.
I'm Chinese by ethnicity, Singaporean by nationality. But now we have mainland Chinese immigrants coming in.
They are also Chinese by ethnicity, but their nationality and earlier backgrounds, upbringing, you know, were based in mainland China.
So when they come to Singapore, there's a sense of Singaporeans feel that they are not the same as us.
We look Chinese, we can both speak Mandarin, but the kind of Mandarin we speak is different. So the accent is different.
And I think, you know, in Singapore, as I mentioned earlier, because we now learn Mandarin as a second language, we don't use it to the same kind of ofsophisticated extent, right, as the mainland Chinese who use it as their first language.
So these kinds of intercultural differences are coming to the fore and creating tensions between co-ethnics, a sense of you're not the same as us, eventhough we share the same ethnicity.
And the same also kind of observations can be found amongst the new Indian immigrants and the Indians who consider themselves as local-bornSingaporeans.
So the same kind of dynamics.

[16:29] I think, so while it may be true to say that Singaporeans have a sense of what Singaporean identity and community means.

Evolving Singaporean Identity

[16:39] It is still constantly being challenged and sort of open towards new ways of thinking about what identity and community means, because migrationchanges the way we live in society.
So some of these mainland Chinese immigrants in the past, they've now become permanent residents or new citizens.
So their nationality now is actually Singaporean. But Singaporeans who are locally born may still feel you're not the same as us.
So how do we integrate them into the, or heighten, you know, a sense of belonging and solidarity amongst these different co-ethnics who are nowSingaporeans?

Keller:
[17:17] And then within, you mentioned like the long-term permanent resident in the citizenship.
Do most people that are considered local all have citizenship?
Because I know for Singapore, you have to revoke your prior citizenship to become Singaporean.
And that might be a barrier for some people, especially if they're immigrating from China or somewhere that might be close and appealing to go back to alater date.
Is there a difference in dynamic between?
Could you consider yourself local, I guess, if you weren't a citizen?

Elaine:
[17:45] So permanent residency, as you mentioned earlier, Singapore does not allow dual citizenship.
So if you become a Singapore citizen, you have to give up your previous nationality.
So permanent residency allows migrants who are eligible to, in a sense, maintain the best of both worlds, which is to have permanent residency status inSingapore, which allows them to buy public housing, be eligible for certain subsidies, but then they can still retain their former nationality in case theyever want to go back.
So actually in some immigrant families, we see different family members having different citizenships, right, to maximise their options in the future.
Is there a difference in terms of their sense of rootedness? If you ask.

[18:34] Singaporeans, they would say yes, because in a sense, when you're permanent residency, you're also giving yourself a backdoor.
But in our normal interactions, we don't go around asking people, are you a permanent resident or citizen, right?
So you kind of appraise who they are through your observations in terms of how they speak, how they carry themselves, their mindsets as well.
And these are all highly subjective, which makes studying citizenship geographies quite an exciting field because constantly you're trying to make senseof of how do people differentiate amongst themselves?
What are the emotional and the material impacts of these forms of differentiation for not just the individual, but also the community and the nation?

Brent:
[19:16] Definitely. So then kind of jumping into the specifics of the old versus the new Chinese immigrants to Singapore, what are some of thosedifferences and what are also those tensions that exist between the two?

Elaine:
[19:28] Okay, so in Singapore, you will encounter these immigrants in your housing estates, in your workplace, maybe in some social activities.
So how do people identify a sense of difference? As I say, it's highly subjective.
And I guess personally, I would say, I may not agree with all of them, but as an academic researcher, I have to surface what people tell me.
And what they share is you can actually differentiate new immigrants from locally born Singaporeans through the way they speak, right?
Whether or not you can speak Singlish, the...

[20:03] Accent that you carry when you speak Mandarin. So perhaps for your untrained ears, you can't really tell.
But for us, we can tell, you know, Singaporean Mandarin versus mainland Chinese accented Mandarin.
So for instance, one of my respondents, she was from mainland China.
I think she's now either permanent resident or citizen. And she told me when she first came to Singapore, she would go to the local community centres.
So these are clubs where there are activities that residents can sign up for and she said when she went there she realized she was the only person in theactivity i think it was a karaoke like singing classes she said she was the only person from mainland china and she knew it because well first of all shewas younger than most of the other participants uh because the participants who go to the community center activities are usually older singaporeans soshe could speak mandarin but they spoke dialects right they're of the age group where they spoke Chinese dialects instead so that was one axis ofdifferentiation and they became very curious they started asking her you know oh you're from China why are you here in Singapore and you know thesekind of questions while they may be asked post out of curiosity on the part of the local Singaporeans for the recipient when you're.

[21:18] Who's a migrant when you're repeatedly asked these questions it makes you feel that I am different Right.
And so sometimes it may even some of these questions may even be interpreted as microaggressions that the migrant feels.
So the challenge really is to enhance, I think, a sense of sensitivity on the part of local Singaporeans in terms of how do we interact with migrants withoutmaking them feel that you are not the same as us, if that's not your intention.

Fostering Inclusive Interactions

Keller:
[21:47] Is there a general phrasing of that type of question that you'd recommend?
Because with the US too, there's a lot of migrants.
The distinction between curiosity and being pestering or creating that feeling of, oh, you're not welcome, can become difficult.

Elaine:
[22:04] I think sometimes when the way the questions are asked, it is underpinned by a sense of, by some, like a judgment, like a judgmental attitude.
So for instance, in this particular case, because she was a younger female person from mainland China, and amongst older Singaporeans, there have beensuspicions that younger mainland Chinese women, they come to Singapore because they want to look for local husbands, local Singaporean husbands.
So, questions like, you know, are you married?
What kind of work do you do? Can come across as being very sort of interfering or interventionist, right?
Or it invades upon your privacy, right?
Maybe a way of asking it instead would be, oh, why did you come to Singapore?
You know, what is it about Singapore that attracts you? What do you like about it?
So these kinds of more generally posed questions, I think, creates a more open atmosphere for interactions rather than questions that are alreadyunderpinned by a sense of, you know, certain assumptions we may have about different ethnic groups or nationalities.

Brent:
[23:11] Yeah and that was a pretty that was not a very overt example of like aggressive like wording and I know when reading some of your work ispeople are just very blunt and say like oh they're rude, there's like there's more tensions beyond just like, kind of undertones and questions like do did youever see that people would just to an immigrant's face be like you guys are rude you need to change how you're acting like this is ridiculous.

Elaine:
[23:41] Well i haven't personally experienced it myself but i have read about it in news reports that so some of the uh in our hawker centers which are foodcenters some of the stores are manned by uh mainland Chinese migrant workers, right?
And so they can't speak English. They can only speak Mandarin.
And when a Singaporean customer goes to the store, I've heard of cases where they demand that that person speaks English.
You're in Singapore now. Why can't you speak English?
Because maybe this particular person doesn't speak Mandarin, may not be a Chinese or maybe a Chinese person who isn't very strong in Mandarin.
That happens too. So, you know, these kinds of more overt confrontations can be very uncomfortable, I think, for not just the migrant worker, but alsopeople who are observing, right, in the hawker centre.
Yeah, that's one example. There are other examples, for instance, of news reports about conspicuous consumption of some of the richer mainland Chineseimmigrants, because we also have very wealthy mainland Chinese immigrants who've come to Singapore as investors and entrepreneurs. entrepreneurs.

[24:49] So they buy homes in Sentosa Cove, they go to the branded shops, etc.
And sometimes on social media forums, you will find that there are extremely rude comments made about their conspicuous consumption habits, becauseSingaporeans who are of the middling or, you know, in less well-off categories, they may feel, why is it I can't afford these kind of of luxuries, whereasthe newer person, the newer immigrant can.
So that's again, I think especially in social media forums where it's all anonymous, that's where really strong, aggressive remarks come out.

Keller:
[25:26] With the new wave of Chinese immigrants, is there an economic classification that can be placed on them?
Like you mentioned the wealthier, but you also mentioned that some people are working in hawker stands.
Same thing with like, you talked about the Indian migrants earlier.
From what we know, that migration wave is a lot more generally higher income migrants.

Elaine:
[25:45] Okay, so this is a bit of context on the managed migration policy in Singapore.
In both the case of China and India, the managed migration policy brings in immigrants from these countries who feel different skills spectrum inSingapore.
So you can have the very highly educated, well-to-do ones who come in as entrepreneurs, very highly skilled professionals, investors.
So that's one category. And these are usually the kind of workers which the Singapore government and companies have identified as gaps or areas forgrowth and investment for the economy, for the Singapore economy.
But on the other hand, we also have a gap that needs to be filled when it comes to lower wage work.
So for example, hawkers, cleaners, hawker assistants, cleaners, construction workers, domestic workers.
Domestic workers, some of them could be from India, but not from China.
Again, this has to do with the complexities of our managed migration policy.

[26:50] But so just to maybe take a step back, what I'm trying to bring across here is the managed migration schemes in Singapore really have thisstratification of skills, ranging from very wealthy, highly skilled immigrants from China and India to the middling class professionals who stay in theHDB flats alongside other Singaporeans and the lower wage workers who do the kind of work which Singaporeans don't want to do, either because it'slowly paid or because it's considered dirty work.
They don't want to take up so we need in a sense uh these immigrants from different backgrounds.

Bridging Economic Gaps

Brent:
[27:27] Definitely and then real quick for the listener who doesn't know hawker stands or like food courts it's very common they're all over the place verylike good cheap food uh and so you talked about all these different gaps that exist what's being done to bridge some of these gaps, so or maybe whatshould be done to bridge the gaps one.

Elaine:
[27:47] Example i can give you is in terms of the care work that needs to be done in Singapore.
So in Singapore, we have become heavily reliant on migrant labour and this is migrant labour that may not necessarily be from China or India.
It could be from not just China, India, but also the Philippines, Myanmar, Indonesia.
So these kind of workers, they would do care work, for instance, as migrant domestic workers or as migrant nurses, versus healthcare professionals andlong-term care workers for older Singaporeans.
So Singapore faces the challenges of an ageing society, right?
So we need care workers to fill in these kinds of skills gaps.
And because care work is tough, it may not always be highly paid.
So it has been a struggle for both companies and the government to encourage Singaporeans to take up these kinds of work.
So in terms of bridging you know the gap i think that's care work is an area where that there are needs in the economy and society and migrant labor hashelped to fill in these kind of care gaps.

Government Support for Care Workers

Keller:
[28:54] Does the government support programs to get care workers because i know from what we've looked at singapore is one of the cheapest countriesto have a care worker like a permanent live-in care worker in the world?

Elaine:
[29:06] Okay, so it depends on the sector.
So for instance, with migrant domestic workers, and these are live-in domestic workers, so they stay with Singapore families to help them with childcare,elder care, housework, even pet care.
So I know of families who hire domestic workers to help take care of pets, multiple pets in the household. And in this particular case, I think it is moreleft to the hands of the private sector.
So employment agents, recruitment agents, etc.
They will go to these countries, Indonesia, Myanmar, the Philippines to recruit.
But there are some government regulations over how these workers can be recruited, the kind of work they do, as well as their working conditions.
And in another sector, for instance, in the healthcare sector, that would be, I think, more government regulated because it has to do with certification,professional skills, etc.

Keller:
[30:08] And is there a preference or a leaning towards like what regions the care workers are recruited from for a particular family?

Elaine:
[30:16] It very much, so it's an intersection of two factors.
One is there are certain source countries that the government allows the private sector to recruit from.
So in this case, for migrant domestic workers, it would be the Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar, and to a lesser extent, if I'm not mistaken, India.
But the actual recruitment where families hire from depends very much on their personal preferences.
So, researchers have found that Filipino migrant workers may be preferred for some families because they are stronger in terms of their English languageskills, their training, whereas some families may prefer Indonesian or Myanmar domestic workers because they're considered less expensive to hire andeasier for the employers to manage.
So there are these kinds of stereotypes and pragmatic considerations that influence the way Singaporean families decide where to hire from.

Brent:
[31:22] And then just kind of wrapping up this idea of identity when migrating, I think we've touched on it a little bit already about how you might feel athome in one place, but still pulled back to a different country.

Navigating Inclusion and Isolation

[31:36] What are some of those examples of inclusion slash isolation when you're in a new country?

Elaine:
[31:45] Maybe you can share it with me since you are visiting students from the US.
Have you felt isolated or not belonging in some ways while you're here?

Keller:
[31:57] I think it's a sense of difference. It's definitely different in terms of our perception of culture from our age group.
Because back home, the college culture and the way you interact with students is very different than here.
Here, it's been very difficult. Granted, we could have made a stronger effort, but it's been difficult to make interactions in the same way it would be backhome of just small talk or getting together after class.
Those types of things don't seem to be as much of a priority as the actual coursework here, and that can lend itself to being isolating.
But in terms of our interactions of just being around town or talking with grab drivers or talking with random people, everyone seems to be veryinterested in what we're doing and very curious about why did you choose Singapore?
I haven't felt anybody wording a question in a sense that's like, oh what are you doing here? Exactly.

Elaine:
[32:51] So this is a, I think it links very well to the example that I'm going to share.

Workplace Interactions in Singapore

[32:54] So for instance, in the workplace, Singaporeans and migrants working together, I think one of the things which some of my participants havebrought up to me, and these are participants from mainland China.

[33:07] Their expectation, perhaps, or sort of sense of feeling welcome in a society may include being invited to visit the homes of their colleagues, right?
So for some of them, it's like, I can drop by or you may invite me for a meal, etc.

[33:22] But in Singapore, because our homes are quite small, and most of the time, I think many families don't necessarily cook for themselves, they mayalso see the home as a very private space.
So they don't actually extend an invitation to their migrant colleagues to visit their homes. But that can actually make the migrant colleague feel, I'm notwelcome.

[33:40] Why am I not being invited? Some of them gradually realise that there are just different ways of socialising and interacting here in Singapore, andthey come to accept that.
But for some others, they may then say, I prefer actually to interact with people from the same country where I'm from or from my same culturalbackground because we'll go to visit one another in each other's homes.
And that's where we get to know, deepen our friendship. So there are these kind of seemingly banal differences that takes a little bit of investigation toactually understand that the societal cultural norms and mores are different.
And it requires adaptation on both parts.
So, for instance, if as a Singaporean, we're not able to invite our colleagues to our homes, but we could initiate sort of going out after work for a mealtogether so that we get to know each other.
Or if your colleagues for instance as it happens in my department sometimes our colleagues from other countries they organize socials in their homes Iwill make an effort to turn up to just show that you know I want to be part of your community too yeah.

Brent:
[34:52] That's very interesting because back home I would definitely say a lot of the colleagues and work events never happen in homes.
That's pretty rare. So it's a lot more common to be, oh, let's go get drinks after, let's go eat food or team lunches.

Elaine:
[35:09] Talking about China, because China where these mainland Chinese and migrants are from, China is such a huge and diverse country and you'll bevisiting China soon so you can discover it for yourself.
So there are also regional variations as well as urban differences.
So if you come from, say, a, a huge city where housing is very expensive, like Beijing or Shanghai, people there may live in small homes as well.
And so they tend to have their socials outside of the home.
But if you come from a more medium-sized city where you live closer to where your colleagues work and stay as well, then you may have moreinteractions in homes.
But the example I gave you was also from someone one who is older, in their 50s or 60s.
And so that generational mindset may be different from the younger migrants today.
So in terms of how I do my research, I've always been very sensitized to occupational differences, ethnic differences, as well as age differences in theway that migrants interact with one another, which maybe brings us to another topic that you indicated you're interested in my more recent research onaging migrants in Singapore.
So how did I become become interested in that. I think after many years of looking at migrants who are in the workplace or younger families, I just feltalso confronted by the reality that Singapore is an ageing society.

[36:35] I think we'll be a super aged society by 2026 or something along those lines.
And in thinking through the demographic challenges in Singapore, alongside my own existing research research on migration, it suddenly struck me, howdo older migrants manage in Singapore, right?
And again, if we go back to that skill spectrum to do with Singapore's managed migration policy, there's a range of ageing migrants here in Singapore.
So one group would be the domestic workers who have lived and worked in Singapore for decades, from their 20s and now they're in their 50s and 60s.How do they think about, ageing, especially when they don't have longer-term residency rights here in Singapore and their family members are all stillback in the Philippines.
So that's one group. Another group of ageing migrants I studied are the mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants who come on what we calltransnational shuttles a couple of months in a year to help with childcare.

[37:35] Looking after younger grandchildren because they are the grandparenting migrants' children who are the parents, they are all busy in theworkplace.
So these grandparents come in for a couple of months during the year to help with childcare, but they can't stay for long in Singapore because they comein on tourist visas or short-term visiting visas.
So some families actually undertake like a rotation of roles.
You have the grandfather come first, then the grandfather goes back because the visa is expired, then the grandmother comes, then it happens again.
So the grandparent from the other side of the family, the in-laws comes over.
So there's this rotation of you know child care duties but yet these grandparents they don't have longer residency rights in Singapore while they are herein Singapore they cannot access subsidized health care so some of them for instance may delay their own health checks or they one of them saidwhenever he comes to Singapore it's for three to six months so he packs like a whole luggage full of medications so that he doesn't have to see the localdoctors here to stock up on say you know high blood blood pressure, medication, et cetera.
So that's one, a second group. The other third group of aging immigrants who I've become interested in are the ones who actually have managed to applyfor residency or citizenship rights.
So they, we think of them as people who are settled longer term in Singapore.

[38:58] In my research projects on aging, I realized that locally born Singaporeans while older, the family networks are a very important aspect of howthey age, right?
Who they look to for support, companionship, etc.
But with these other group of aging immigrants, their closest family members may no longer be here in Singapore.
Sometimes not even their children, because their children may have been brought up in Singapore, but have then decided that I'm going to migrate tostudy in the US, I'm going to go work in London.
So their parents are here, right? But the children are actually living overseas.
And so what are the social networks of these aging immigrants like?
So over the years, my research has now transitioned to a point where I've actually become very interested in aging and how it intersects with migration.

Keller:
[39:46] With aging, you mentioned the networks of support.
How common is it to have an elder person stay at a home.
Because in the US, I wouldn't say it's super common, but it's a generally accepted thing that at a certain age, if the parents can't help out, you send themto a care home.

Elaine:
[40:04] So like a professionally run care home.

Brent:
[40:07] Right?

Elaine:
[40:07] So in Singapore, we would refer to them maybe as nursing homes.
And I think the cultural mindset here is such that.

[40:20] The older generation in particular still feels that they would like to age in their own homes and with their family members.
So moving to a care home is not a prospect that they look forward to.
And care workers whom I've interviewed, these are people who run nursing homes here in Singapore, they've also noticed that when an olderSingaporean transitions to the care home, their health condition and mental condition tends to deteriorate more rapidly.
So normally the care homes here we think of them as catering to a group of older Singaporeans who have more advanced care needs so in the case of saythe US or in some European countries I think you have assisted living homes as well so these are for younger older adults who are more independentsemi-independent and I think this is one area that the Singapore government has started to look into very seriously but the constraint that we face thereare two actually Actually, one is space, the space for it, because Singapore is a small city-state.
So we don't have the luxury of building many of these kinds of homes.
The other constraint is in terms of who does the care work, right?
So we still rely quite heavily on migrant workers.
So these are two constraints that we face. And I think the Singapore government, as well as private sector players, is they're looking into innovative waysof trying to meet the growing demand for assisted care living facilities.

[41:45] The other option that people have looked into is to enable ageing in the home.
So for instance, to refurbish your existing homes to make it elder-friendly.

[41:55] To have community care facilities at the void decks, the lower ground where these high-rise flats are, so that there are common facilities, and alsohiring migrant domestic workers or live-in caregivers who have had some basic medical training to assist with the care of the older person at home.
So as you can see from what I'm describing, when we talk about a Singapore that's ageing rapidly, the migrant worker still features very prominently inhow we gear up to prepare for care work.

Brent:
[42:25] And then, as a broad generalization, would it be fair to say Asian cultures typically tend to rely heavily on the family for Asian members, whetherit be they all live together or the expectation is very much like, when I'm starting to age, you're coming back and taking care of me.
Would that be a fair assumption?

Elaine:
[42:48] I think it used to be in the past, but clearly societal thinking on this has also started to change.
So I think some young old adults, right, they are becoming more open as they age.
So if I use the example of, say, my uncle and my aunt, right, they probably wouldn't expect their children to do the hands-on care or to live with theirchildren because they also think, you know, it's good to have some distance, right, so that you maintain more harmonious family relationships.
Also, homes in Singapore are small, right? We stay in high-rise buildings and so the flats or apartments are not big and having multi-generational living,there are some options but not so many.
So another way in which the government has tried to mitigate this in terms of enabling separate living arrangements but close enough is through thehousing subsidy scheme to give grants to children who are applying for flats near their parents.
So I think societal thinking on how care should be carried out in older age has started to change.
And the government policies are also trying to meet these changes, sort of finding midway solutions.
And increasingly, it's also become more common to have elder care carried out by migrant domestic workers or live-in caregivers.

Brent:
[44:12] Give us yeah because that's exactly where it kind of was going with other concerns over like losing touch with like culture or culture changing in away that is going to make it a little more unrecognizable.

Elaine:
[44:28] I think with the changing generation of older Singaporeans, probably less sort of sentimentally tied to those cultural norms.
If you ask my grandmother's generation, my grandmother actually did stay with us when she was older.

[44:42] And for her generation, it would be quite unthinkable, you know, if your children didn't take care of you.
But with my dad, you know, or my in-laws, I think their generation, they're more open towards thinking about what other care arrangements can we lookinto when our children are no longer living with us.
So again, the sort of availability of migrant domestic workers is one option for them.
The other option is as assisted care living facilities ramp up, that's an option they may look into or having community care facilities.

[45:18] You know, in the estates where they stay in.
My father interestingly has said to me if my sister moves out he would be open towards renting a room out to another person so that he has a companionyeah so i think that generation their thinking on aging has changed and in my case when i think about my son who's currently but a toddler right uh myhusband and i recognize that especially because he's an only child we wouldn't want him to bear the burden of taking care of us entirely on his own so weare also kind of preparing for retirement adequacy and thinking about in the future what kind of what kind of an aging you know experience do we wantto have right it's not just only about um you know the family but what are the other kind of things which we haven't done when we were younger that wemay want to do more of like travel you know do volunteer work overseas for example when he's older so i think there are generational changes yeahyeah.

Positive Interactions Among Grandparenting Migrants

Brent:
[46:16] I know it's one thing my grandma loved about going to assisted living was just the amount of people because it gets lonely living in an apartmentalone so when she went she just was talking with all these different people all the time and.

Elaine:
[46:28] Definitely made it better exactly so i think you know when these kind of positive experiences uh become more uh known within singapore frominternational examples or as as the experiences of staying in assisted living facilities become more known to other Singaporeans, you know, mindsetsmay change.
There will be challenges in terms of, as I mentioned, staffing, space, etc.
But it's very much also about the kind of societal messages that we send to one another. What are the other options available?

Keller:
[47:01] And then, as we mentioned, like how the older migrants interact with their families or possibly caregivers.
Do you have any examples of how they interact with each other whether that be at nursing homes or...

Brent:
[47:12] Yeah, and then also like the grandparents that come in for a couple months, how do they interact with the local aging population?

Elaine:
[47:18] Okay, so one of the research projects we did was on mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants who stay in a particular housing estate inSingapore.
So as part of that research project, the researchers and I, we would go to the public park, we'd go to the community centers, sometimes to observe,sometimes to recruit participants. or at other times it's because our participants brought us along.
And we noticed that, for example, in one of the public parks in the neighbourhood that we studied, that the mainland Chinese grandparenting migrantswould do Tai Chi together with the local Singaporeans.
And this is one area, I think, that local Singaporeans recognise the mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants actually no more.
So, for instance, one of the instructors in this group, he's actually a Singaporean and he said to me, there's actually a new mainland Chinese.

[48:09] Grandparenting migrant who's joined their group and he's relinquished you know the right to teach to her because she knows so many more stylesin terms of Tai Chi than he does so this is one area where there's positive learning, in another aspect another grandparent from China she said to me afterthe Tai Chi class they would go together with their the members from Singapore as well as other countries to have a meal together And sometimes theydo a potluck.
So they will each bring a dish, you know, that is culturally familiar to them.
And that's when they get to learn about other cultures and nationalities through the exchange of food.
So these are quite positive experiences of how the mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants are interacting with local Singaporeans.
However, we are also cognizant in our research project that there could be other acts of exclusion as a result.
So with learning Tai Chi and interacting with the mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants, the language of communication is Mandarin.

[49:08] So we heard of this example where a group of them, Singaporeans and the mainland Chinese grandparenting migrants, they were doing Tai Chitogether and an Indian Singaporean came by and he was interested to learn.
So they welcomed him. They said, oh, please feel free to join us.
And he joined for a couple of lessons, but then subsequently he dropped out because the language of communication was still in Mandarin.
So he had difficulty keeping up. So I think as a researcher, What I recognize is there are multiple dynamics of inclusion and exclusion.
When we are inclusive towards a particular group, we may unwittingly create different kinds of excess of exclusions.
And so there's constantly a recalibration, right, to be mindful in terms of how do we interact with one another, especially when there's such diversity in aplace like Singapore.

Brent:
[49:55] Definitely. And language could be an exclusion point for any age.
Are there any age-specific difficulties or frictions that these migrants are facing because they're older in Singapore?

Elaine:
[50:10] Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I think...

Brent:
[50:12] I found this on the web.

Keller:
[50:13] What? The Siri.

Elaine:
[50:18] Do you want to ask the question again and then you can edit it out? Yeah. Yeah.

Brent:
[50:20] So are there any friction points in Singapore that are specific to like the aging populations or the aging migrants here that the working class or likethe working age won't really experience?

Elaine:
[50:33] So one way of thinking about this is in a research project I've done with aging immigrants in Singapore, they told me that when they were youngerand they moved to Singapore, they thought about, does moving to Singapore allow me to buy property?
So in order to buy, especially public housing, you need to be either a permanent resident or citizen.
So in their minds, the ability to buy property in Singapore featured quite strongly in terms of migration motivations, settlement decisions.
The other thing was children's education. Can my child get a good education here in Singapore?

Shifting Priorities in Aging Immigrants

[51:11] Will they go to local schools? Will they go to international schools?
But when they grew older, they told me their thinking has changed.
So these days, instead of thinking about property and schooling, their children are now all grown up, maybe studying and living overseas.
They think about healthcare and elder care. Where am I going to age?
Can I afford the cost of living here in Singapore as someone who's older without an income, an active income?
Can I access good quality healthcare? Who's going to look after me when I'm older? Can I afford a domestic worker?

[51:43] And interestingly, in this particular project, we did interviews with both mainland Chinese, older immigrants, and then with Indian immigrants.
And these are people who have permanent residency or citizenship in Singapore.
So I think before we started the project, our thinking was they are likely to be aging here in Singapore.

[52:04] But when we did our interviews separately, you know, with individual migrants, we realized that one recurring pattern that came up was the Indianimmigrants felt that.

[52:18] It would not be so feasible for them to participate in community activities, which are predominantly Chinese, right?
So because of the language of communication, because of cultural habits, etc.
Whereas with the mainland Chinese immigrants, they're now in their 60s, they would tell us, oh, yes, I go to the community center or the residencecommunity, you know, they have activities and I can engage with these activities.
Whereas the Indian immigrants said to us, they have reservations.

[52:48] And also talking about our community, sorry, nursing homes or care facilities, right?
One of our participants said, I can't imagine myself going to a care home in Singapore because what if they're all speaking Mandarin?
And I'm older, I can't speak Mandarin. How am I going to communicate?
So there are different considerations, yeah, I think, in terms of how do I age, where do I age, what do I need to age well.
So that's what differentiates, I think, my more recent projects from the earlier ones.
I'm interested in how people's thinking about migration changes over the life course, right?
When you're younger, some motivations or considerations are more central to you, whereas when you're older, it's different.
You know what are my health care and elder care needs how are they met how will they be met is it in singapore or will i go somewhere else so some forfor the indian immigrants when we spoke to they said one of the reasons why singapore is a good place for them to be based is because they can travelback easily to india yeah to visit family or to look for um you know certain maybe more traditional medical care if they need to yeah.

Brent:
[53:55] Yeah and then just for a little bit of context and please correct me if I get these wrong, but.
Ethnically singapore is what around 60 percent chinese i.

Elaine:
[54:06] Think it's a bit more than a bit more about 70 percent yeah and then 75 percent yeah.

Brent:
[54:10] And then there's like in melee and then indians only going to be like less than 10.

Elaine:
[54:16] Yes that's right yeah so they are an ethnic minority within singapore um and in addition the indian immigrants who come they actually come froma different part part of India compared to local Singaporeans.
So the local Indian Singaporeans, ancestrally, they would come from Tamil Nadu, right?
So they speak Tamil, whereas the newer Indian immigrants come from more diverse parts, including northern parts of India, where they may speak Hindiinstead of Tamil.
So that, again, is another axis of differentiation within the Indian community here in Singapore.

Brent:
[54:48] Definitely.

Keller:
[54:49] Is that why it might be more difficult? Because you mentioned the community centers. I know that there are Indian community centres, but is thatwhy it's maybe not as appealing for the older Indian generation?
Because the language barrier might still exist even at their respective community group?

Elaine:
[55:04] Possibly. Having said that, there are also Indian immigrant associations that they could spend their time in instead.
So there are other options for them. And some of the older Indian immigrants whom we spoke to, they are actually members of these Indian immigrantassociations. associations.
However, I think I just also want to add that while things may change in a couple of years' time, in a decade or so, right?
Because then the next cohort of people who are aging may speak English more so than Mandarin or dialects.
So then the experience of these immigrants who don't speak Mandarin may change because now they can communicate with other the people using thesekind of facilities or engaging in activities in English.
So we'll have to observe. And that's actually one of the questions that you had asked about is, you know, what other kinds of research directions couldthat be?
You know, in 10, 15 years time, the things which I'm sharing with you now may no longer be valid, right?
Because different kinds of language dynamics or migration trends may actually come into play.

Brent:
[56:07] Yeah. And then kind of looking forward on some of those trends.
In talking about Singapore being a super aging population, isn't it true that the majority of the world or a lot of the world right now is experiencing likerapid aging and places like the US and China are going to experience like really heavy burdens of like smaller, younger populations having to take careof older populations? Yeah.

Elaine:
[56:31] So these kinds of dynamics that I'm talking about in terms of migration and aging, they are not unique to Singapore.
So if you look at some European countries, there's a researcher who's done work on older Swiss people and their caregivers, and they are also migrantworkers, but they tend to be from, say, neighboring Eastern European countries or rather than neighboring Asian countries, like in the case of Singapore.
So the overall kind of trends are similar, but the cultural and contextual dynamics differ depending on government policies, family values, as well as thecontext of migration.
So that's what makes migration research very exciting because these aging needs in other parts of the world are similarly being met by migrants.
In the case of China, it may not be international migrants, the domestic workers, but they are rural Chinese migrants.
And there are other axes of differentiation in terms of urbanites versus people from rural parts of China, their thinking, maybe the dialects they speak, etc.
So there are similar dynamics at play. But for researchers, what's exciting is if we go to a different part of the world, what we observe seems similar, butthere are these very specific cultural contexts that we need to flesh out and understand better as well.

Brent:
[57:52] Definitely.

Keller:
[57:53] And for the aging crisis, if you want to call it that, what's causing that broadly?
Is it birth rates or what's the leading kind of factor behind it?

Elaine:
[58:04] Okay, so aging demographics have to do with declining birth rates, and declining birth rates vary internationally.
So in kind of more economically advanced countries like the US, like Singapore, you know, people are choosing to have fewer children.
But the other side of the coin is longevity. So with healthcare advances, technological advances, people are living for longer as well.
So it's the kind of intersection of these two demographic trends that has resulted in concerns over ageing societies.
But I would be cautious about painting it as a crisis because when we think of it as a crisis, it kind of connotes gloom and doom and that older people area burden. But there are...

Productive Longevity and Aging Society

[58:55] Other ways of thinking about this issue, especially coming from ageing studies and gerontological research.
So when people age, it doesn't mean that they necessarily decline, because with better healthcare, with just mindfulness in terms of how you manage.

[59:11] Mental deterioration, etc, people can live longer, but yet still maintain very productive and enriching lives.
So for instance, one phrase that's come up in the case of Singapore is this term productive longevity, right?
You may live longer, but it doesn't mean that you necessarily need to retire at 65.
The kind of work you do may change, but you can still remain economically productive or mentally active.
And then another way of thinking about it is we have what we call the silver industry.
So the silver industry refers to economic opportunities that come up by tapping into the ageing demographics.
So for example, tourism packages, you know, for older Singaporeans, right? That's very popular.
Or even inventing devices, gadgets to help with, say, declining health needs.
These are all commercial aspects that have remained to be fully explored.
More innovative models of care as well. So in recent years, Singapore has seen a couple of companies that provide home care services.
So these are medical professionals or care workers that are dispatched by commercial companies to their clients' homes.
They don't stay with the client, but they provide the care services that the client needs. So this is again an emerging market.

[1:00:33] One very interesting project that I did a couple of years ago, we went to actually look at what are some other kinds of innovative commercialopportunities.
So one One particular company actually has a very...

[1:00:48] Considered a high-class club, okay, for older people. So it's very expensive, but you can go horse riding.
They have like, you know, an indoor pool.
They organize eco-trails to bring a group of older people together, you know, to parts of Singapore, which they may not have explored on their own.
Another example is gyms that cater, right, to older people because the feedback that the owner of that company receive is that older people feelintimidated when they go to the same gyms as younger people because they feel like, I cannot do the same kind of exercises.
So instead, you know, these entrepreneurs, they created a gym with specialized facilities for these older people and they have curated personal trainingclasses, etc.
And then outside of the training, they they organize potlucks because they say, you know, many of our older clients, they actually miss cooking for theirfamilies because their children no longer have time to come back to eat with them.
So instead, they have potlucks where they can share their best dishes with one another.
So there are these new opportunities. And that's the kind of, you know, aging future that I look forward to. I know I have choice.
I can, you know, develop new ways of seeking companionship. Very different from what I observe of my grandmother's generation.
So when my my grandmother lived with us, the main thing that she looked forward to was when we all came home from school. So she would sit and shewould just wait for us to come home.
Whereas when I'm older, I want to be out there having fun, you know?

Brent:
[1:02:17] Definitely. As we wrap up here, is there anything else you'd like to add or have the listeners think about?

Embracing Shared Humanity

[1:02:24] I know we touched on a lot of different topics. So just...

Elaine:
[1:02:27] Yeah. So maybe just to tie it all together, with the range of research projects I've done on the different kinds of migrants and then more recentlyon ageing Singaporeans as well as ageing immigrants, I think what I really want to flag up is that we have a shared humanity.
And I think one good example is when we think of the migrant domestic workers who are younger and they are here in Singapore to care for olderSingaporeans, the social protection of the older Singaporean, the welfare of the older Singaporean is very much also associated with the welfare of thecaregiver.
So the caregiver needs to feel well-rested, needs to feel supported and secure in the kind of work she's doing.
And I think in terms of the different kind of research subjects I've looked at, the diverse research topics, it's a caring society which I look forward to.
And of course caring is difficult it's political it's always a work in progress but if we are individually and as a community mindful and willing to take thesteps I believe you know it is for the better of society in the end yeah overall so that's it from me wonderful thank you okay thank you.