Warwick Vincent
Description:
Warwick Vincent, is a Professor of Biology at Laval University and former President of Canada’s National Antarctic Committee. His recent work looks at microscopic life at the bottom of aquatic food webs and the physical aspects of the ecosystems they live in. In this episode we talk about his work and expeditions to the polar regions, how ice cap melting is impacting their ecosystems, and the difference between the Arctic and Antarctic. Professor Vincent also explains how indigenous groups like the Inuit are disproportionately affected by climate change and the geopolitical effects of a melted Arctic.
Websites:
Publications:
Lakes and Reservoirs as Sentinels, Integrators and Regulators of Climate Change
Climate Change Effects on Arctic Ecosystems
Effects of Permafrost Thaw on Arctic Landscapes and Ecosystems
Microbial Hydrocarbon Production and Degradation
Books:
Lakes: A Very Short Introduction
Microbial Ecosystems of Antarctica
Limnology by Alex Horne & Charles Goldman
The Right to Be Cold by Sheila Watt-Cloutier
Resources:
Introduction to Arctic Environments
Introduction to the Ecology of Northern Lakes and Rivers
Witnessing Ice Habitat Collapse in the Arctic
Arctic Climate Change: Local Impacts, Global Consequences, and Policy Implications
International Arctic Science Committee
Show Notes:
[01:10] Professor Vincent’s background and what got him interested in limnology
[03:30] What went through your mind when you first arrived in Antarctica in 1979?
[04:40] Can you compare and contrast Antarctica & the Arctic?
[05:50] Could you describe how the lakes and rivers in the polar regions are different from typical ones?
[10:50] Could you talk about the importance of microscopic life in the polar regions?
[12:40] Could you expand on how the microbes impact the entire food chain up to Inuits
[14:30] What can we learn from the locals?
[16:45] Why is the Arctic heating faster than the rest of the world, and what impact will this have for the rest of the planet?
[19:00] How does rain increase the melting in the arctic and what impact does it have?
[23:40] What is the polar Silk Road?
[26:00] Could you compare the geopolitical differences between the Arctic & Antarctic
[28:30] Could you talk about the larger nations failing their own climate agreements?
[30:40] Could you talk about a new hydrocarbon producing microbes found in the arctic?
[32:30] How are the Inuit disproportionately impacted by climate change and what is their right to be cold?
[36:00] How has mentorship impacted your career?
[38:40] How can students get involved in the polar regions?
[40:00] Any parting advice?
Unedited AI Generated Transcript
Professor Vincent's Journey to Laval University and Aquatic Ecosystems
Brent:
[0:02] Welcome, Professor Warwick Vincent. Thank you for joining us today.
Warwick:
[0:05] Well, it's great to be here.
Keller:
[0:06] We'd love to start off by hearing a little bit more about your story.
How did you get to Laval University and broadly, what got you interested in aquatic ecosystems?
Warwick:
[0:16] Well, I'm originally from New Zealand and so I grew up in Auckland, very close to the water. I was always very interested in water.
When I went to university, it's always a sort of a a random walk, you're never too sure who you might meet, what you might bump into.
I was very interested at that stage in cell biology. I thought that was really cool, pulling apart cells and trying to figure out how they worked.
But then in the middle of my degree, I took a freshwater ecology class and we were out on a beautiful lake and we're sampling and the sun was shining and we're using all these neat technologies and I thought, gee, this would be a really cool area to develop, including applying cellular techniques.
[0:57] And so that continued on. I finished up my degree and was looking around for different opportunities.
Ultimately, I was looking at Canada as a place that I might do a degree, but then we had a visit from a very charismatic professor from the University of California, Davis.
He came down to New Zealand and I met up with him and he said, you know, the place to learn about freshwater ecosystems is Lake Tahoe, California, Nevada.
And at UC Davis, we have this incredible group and you should really look at this very seriously. So that took me through UC Davis and I've had strong connections with UC Davis ever since.
But eventually after doing my PhD at UC Davis, I had different opportunities throughout the world, ended up back in New Zealand, But I had a special interest in the polar regions.
Special Interest in Polar Regions: From New Zealand to Laval University
[1:49] We can talk about that in a little bit more detail, but more recently, I was interested in applying some of my interests and expertise to the Arctic.
And one university really jumped out at me, and that was Laval University in Quebec City, Canada, where there's a lot of resources.
There's an icebreaker called the Amundsen for working up through the ice up in the Arctic Ocean, a set of field stations, nine field stations going up to almost the North Pole.
Brent:
[2:21] Wow.
Warwick:
[2:22] It seemed like this would be a good place to work and so I ended up at Leval University. Definitely.
Stepping foot on Antarctica: A New Planet
Brent:
[2:29] What was going through your mind when you first stepped foot on Antarctica back in 1979?
Warwick:
[2:35] It was when I stepped out of the plane, I thought, I've left planet Earth.
This is a new planet. It's the light is all wrong.
And it's 24 hours of daylight, very low sun angle, the sun just goes around and around the horizon.
The scaling doesn't seem right because I'm right next to a mountain that's 12 and a half thousand feet high. Looks like I could climb it in a day.
Not a good thing to do, actually. Had a beautiful snow and ice, an alien landscape.
Very beautiful, extraterrestrial landscape.
This is an extraordinary place.
Keller:
[3:14] Paul How many expeditions have you led there? And have you been able to see any visual changes over your time?
Warwick:
[3:20] Yeah. So, in Antarctica, in the South Polar region, I came in as a very junior scientist with an existing team, learned a lot that season.
And then from that point on, I ran about, probably about nine or 10 expeditions to Antarctica in different parts of Antarctica. Yeah.
Brent:
[3:39] And then can you compare and contrast the differences between Antarctica and the Arctic?
Warwick:
[3:45] There are, obviously, there are similarities in that they're both polar regions.
They both have six months of light and six months of darkness.
They're both cold. Snow and ice is very important in both environments.
But apart from that, there are fundamental differences.
Antarctica is a continent surrounded by sea, stormy seas. I've worked out on those seas.
Boy, I have a lot of respect for the Southern Ocean.
Whereas the Arctic is a sea surrounded by land.
I think the biggest difference that really came home to me working in Canada is that no one lives in Antarctica. There are many scientists, thousands of scientists actually working down in Antarctica each year.
In the Antarctic, the largest program is through the United States Antarctic program, with a large base at McMurdo Sound, but no one living there permanently.
Whereas the Arctic, people have been living there for thousands of years, and we have a lot to learn from those people. Yeah.
Brent:
[4:47] Definitely.
Keller:
[4:49] And could you talk about the difference between rivers and the lakes on land, on typical land and in these Arctic or polar regions?
Warwick:
[4:59] It's a really good question about what are the lakes. And I remember being asked by a newspaper reporter when I came back to New Zealand the first time, he said, would normal people call these lakes?
I said, well, it depends on what you call a lake. So, a lake is a basin of water. it.
But apart from that, there are some differences. Of course, in the Antarctic and the Arctic, that water is covered by very thick ice.
So as a freshwater specialist, as a limnologist, as a lake ecosystem person, the first thing you have to learn to do is to punch holes through very thick ice before you can even start working and access the water.
So that that thick ice is really an important aspect.
[5:44] And then the food web is quite simplified relative to say Lake Tahoe, or Lake Taupo, whereas based back in New Zealand.
You've got fewer animal species, fewer plant species.
That also makes it a really interesting model because you can ask fundamental questions about well, how do ecosystems work? Let's take the fish out.
Fish are not there. So, all right. Now we can figure out how that ecosystem works in the absence of fish.
Really tease apart the individual components of ecosystems.
Some of these ice-covered lakes are really wild in their characteristics, unbelievable.
And in fact, the first people didn't believe what they were measuring when they punched a hole through the ice.
One of those pioneers actually was my professor from UC Davis, Charles Goldman.
And Professor Goldman and worked down there in the 60s, and he penetrated down through the ice, maybe 15, 20 feet of ice. Wow.
And then he lowered down his thermistor probe, and of course, it's supposed to get colder, right?
It got warmer and warmer and warmer.
And the bottom of the lake was, it was like ambient temperature, it's like, you know, almost, well, it's 25 degrees Celsius.
Brent:
[7:05] Wow.
Warwick:
[7:05] Whoa. And I said, how is that possible? The average air temperature down there is minus 20, the winter is minus 60, 60 below.
And it turns out these lakes are acting as natural solar cells.
They're like glass houses. So the sunlight is coming down through that ice, and year after year after year, gradually that solar energy is accumulated.
The calculations are to get to that warm temperature, it took 2000 years. That's crazy.
Brent:
[7:33] Wow.
Warwick:
[7:35] But it's amazing when you're up there on the top of the ice and you're pulling up this water, it's like hot water. It's like a hot water bottle that you pulled out, and it's all due to solar power.
Brent:
[7:44] Yeah, that's insane. just so everyone can get an understanding, Antarctica, land continent with an ice sheet on top of it.
And then the Arctic, a lot of it is sea ice or frozen seawater over the North Pole right now.
Warwick:
[8:00] Darrell Bock That's correct, with land around it that feeds in.
And a big difference really, another big difference between the North and the South Polar Zone is the importance of rivers.
So, in Antarctica, we have little rivers, little streams, which are very interesting biologically as well.
Whereas up in the Arctic, we have huge rivers, massive rivers, some of the biggest rivers in the world.
In Canada, the Mackenzie River. So, the Arctic Ocean is only 1% of the total world ocean volume, but it gets 10% of the world's fresh water.
And so, all these fresh waters are discharging in.
And as a result of that, the Arctic Ocean has quite fresh surface water.
Relative to Antarctica, which is really quite salty.
Brent:
[8:51] Yeah. And then all the rivers and lakes we're talking about, those are existing under ice, but on the land masses still before we get to the top part being just the Arctic Ocean.
Warwick:
[9:03] That's correct. So for the most part they're flowing over land with a couple of exceptions There are glaciers that have rivers flowing on the top of them on the Greenland ice sheet, for example, and there are there are, rivers flowing over the ice. And when you're out on glaciers up in the Arctic, you can hear waterfalls, you hear this roar of mountain water, but it's water on ice that eventually ends up on land and then discharges out to sea.
Keller:
[9:31] And could you give a quick definition of glaciers?
Warwick:
[9:34] Yeah, so glaciers are simply blocks of ice that form on mountains and that flow.
They flow very slowly, but they are flowing masses of ice. Very important for us throughout the world in terms of temperature and in parts of the world, very important in terms of drinking water.
Keller:
[9:51] Paul And narrowing back in a little bit, could you talk about the importance of microscopic life in these regions?
Warwick:
[9:57] Phil Well, I think it's just, it's in recent times that we've begun to realize there is an invisible world out there that so much of the life that exists on our planet is not immediately apparent to our human eyes.
But applying new techniques, especially DNA-based techniques, omic techniques, we suddenly see that most of the life on planet Earth is microscopic.
It's invisible.
It's incredibly abundant. And it's incredibly diverse.
I mean, we add it up in the ocean, you take a glass of water, when you're down on the seashore, you can take a glass of seawater, hold it up to the light, it looks transparent, there's nothing in it.
But in fact, it is teeming with life.
There could be a trillion cells in that glass of water.
And you add it all up of a world ocean, that invisible life, it adds up to the the equivalent of tens of millions of blue whales.
There's a huge amount of biomass. It's invisible, but it's very important.
And so it's like the human microbiome.
It's only in recent times that we realize that there is this microbial life associated with us. It's part of our digestive system.
The Crucial Role of Microbes in Our Wellbeing
[11:20] It's keeping bad microbes at bay.
It's important for our own wellbeing and health, even our mental health.
And similarly, we think that the environmental microbiome is very important.
This microscopic life is important as a life support system on planet earth and keeping healthy ecosystems in a healthy state.
Brent:
[11:39] Can you expand a bit, especially as the ice sheets are melting, how that microbiome impacts the rest of the food chain all the way up to the Inuits and the people living there?
The Importance of Microscopic Life in the Food Web
Warwick:
[11:54] So, that microscopic life is extremely important for keeping the base of the food web going.
With the melting of glaciers, we're seeing some perturbation of the bottom of the food web.
Web, that invisible life is supporting microscopic animals called zooplankton.
Zooplankton: Key Players in the Arctic Food Web
[12:12] Those zooplankton are really the intermediates in the food web because they are the fish food that are keeping species like polar cod surviving and thriving.
Those in turn are eaten by seals and there are belugas and walruses and other species, which in turn are very important as food sources for the Inuit culture.
And one very interesting aspect about all this is that the, that microscopic life, that invisible life up in the North generates a lot of fatty acids, omega-3 fatty acids, PUFAs, polyunsaturated fatty acids, which are really critical to our own nutrition and very important to the Inuit.
And it turns out that the Inuit, the people who live in the northern regions of Canada and Greenland and parts of Russia, Alaska, they are adapted to a very high lipid diet.
They need a lot of energy, obviously, living as people living in a very cold climate.
And they're adapted to these lipid-rich diets, the fatty acid-rich diets that start with that invisible life, and that moves all the way through the food chain, ultimately, to the people who are consuming this at the top.
Keller:
[13:35] And what are some of the things we can learn from talking to these people and working with them?
Warwick:
[13:40] I think we can learn enormously. And we see examples of people in the past, explorers in the past, who failed to talk to the locals.
They came in with their own technologies from Europe, thinking that they could, you know, it was man against nature's, man shall have dominion over the lands and the seas.
Well, a better idea is talk to the people who've been living there for millennia, for thousands of years, because they have ways that might help you not only survive, but also thrive in that environment.
So many of the early explorers got into huge amounts of trouble.
Many died as a consequence of really not talking to the locals, talking to the Inuit, talking to Northern communities about how you live in this extreme environment.
So I think at one level, you can learn about how to adapt to harsh environments and how to survive and operate in an extreme cold environment.
Indigenous Perspective: Humans and Environment as One
[14:42] But secondly, I think you can learn how to be a human being, how to be a better human being in relation to the environment.
Because for indigenous peoples and especially the Inuit, there is no dividing line between human beings in the environment.
They say, we are part of the land, we are part of the sea, you know, we are part of the climate.
There's no dividing line there.
It's not us against nature, it's not a fight. We're in this together.
And that, you know, that message is even more important to us in the 21st century as we realize that we are perturbing our environment at a planetary scale.
We need to get back to living with that environment. This is, It's part of us.
So, when people say, are protecting the environment, we can't afford to do this." well, we're protecting ourselves. We're part of this. Let's look after ourselves." And so, the Inuit have a whole series of principles about how to survive and how to adapt, and adaptability is critical.
Brent:
[15:44] Pete Definitely. And then you mentioned there how this is a global issue.
Could we focus a bit on how the Arctic is warming so quickly compared to the rest of the world, and then extrapolate how that then will impact the rest of the world.
Warwick:
[16:03] So, this is of great concern to us that, of course, the world is heating up, but in the Arctic, there are multiplier factors.
And it's a process that is referred to as Arctic amplification.
So, while the world may be now warming to 1.2 degrees on average, the Arctic region is warming to four degrees, five degrees, six degrees.
Feedback effects and the melting of the Arctic ice
[16:31] On average, the Arctic is increasing by about a factor of three relative to the rest of the world.
And it's because of a whole series of feedback effects. It's, for example, solar energy is coming into the Arctic Ocean and it's reflected by all that ice at the top of the world.
That ice is acting as a gigantic mirror.
It's removing that solar heat, putting it back into space. But as we melt that mirror, less heat is reflected, more is absorbed.
Well, that's more heat for melting. That's melting the mirror.
The ice is getting less and less.
Less heat is reflected back. And so, it's a vicious cycle.
It's a vicious feedback process that is accelerating.
And the concern about this is certainly locally for the local residents, for the Inuit, for the people who've been living there for thousands of years, for whom ice is so important.
It's of concern to the rest of us. They say it's not like Vegas.
What goes on in the Arctic does not stay in the Arctic because the Arctic is connected to the rest of the world.
It is affecting our sea level. It is affecting our climate regime.
It's affecting the overall circulation of the world ocean, which is connected between the Arctic and Antarctica through the global conveyor belt.
So, the sort of changes that we are seeing in the Arctic are of great concern to us for throughout the planet.
Brent:
[17:58] Pete Yeah. And then one of the things you've also mentioned before, maybe not yet on this interview, but the fact that increased rain will also exacerbate it beyond just the mere effect. Could you expand on that too a little bit?
Rain as a game changer in the Arctic climate
Warwick:
[18:12] Paul So this is a big change that we're starting to see that of course, in the past, there was all the precipitation up in the Arctic with snow.
It's so cold, it's always snowfall.
But suddenly, for the first time, we're seeing a shift towards liquid precipitation, to rain.
And rain is a real game changer. As soon as you get rain on snow, it affects that reflection effect.
You see that yourself. When the rain comes on the snow, it's affecting the color of the snow, the snow is darker, the snow is melting more rapidly, it's also of concern to us with the permanently frozen ground.
So what we refer to as permafrost and what engineers up in the north when they're building and runways and military bases and towns and roadways.
The Challenge of Permafrost and Rainfall Erosion
[19:06] The engineers have really treated the ground as concrete. It's rock solid.
Well, it turns out that rock is ice. It's ice in the soil and it's called permafrost, but not so permanent anymore.
And so rainfall, as we shift more and more to rainfall, that's a big problem because we start eroding away at the road that starts ponding water, that starts heating up more, more thawing, more water again, we're back into one of those nasty, vicious circles.
So it requires some very sophisticated ways to deal with that.
So rainfall is a big issue. Yeah.
Brent:
[19:44] And then at the ecological level, because I kind of see the rainfall issue being ecological and infrastructure.
So at the ecological level, could you explain like what is happening when the ground is warming and like the methane release and all that?
Warwick:
[20:00] So that rainfall is accelerating the overall thawing of permafrost.
And one of the extraordinary things about permafrost is this huge amount of carbon that is deep frozen and locked away from the atmosphere.
It's estimated that all that organic carbon, because it's old plants, it's old vegetation that's occurred thousands of years ago, maybe even millions of years ago in some areas.
And it's away from the atmosphere. But as we start warming it up and liquid water is coming in, the rainfall is coming in, Suddenly, that's a great place for microbes to start.
Activating and start breaking down and mobilizing for the first time perhaps in millions of years Wow that organic carbon there is enough organic carbon in the soil to raise atmospheric co2 levels by more than a factor of two Wow, but even worse than that a lot of that mobilization takes place as methane And methane is a very strong greenhouse gas It's over 20 times more powerful than carbon dioxide and these Microbes, there's a certain group of microbes called methanogens.
[21:14] They're generating methane they Need a number of conditions one is low oxygen and liquid water and we're starting to move into that situation so for example, there we have lakes and ponds that we work on and they are that packed full of these microbes that are generating methane from the permafrost-derived organic carbon.
You can even set fire to the methane. You can punch a hole in the middle of a witty, punch a hole down through the ice, and then the methane starts to escape.
If you light a match, boom, you suddenly get this flame leaping out to a couple of meters high out of the lake.
So this is so much of this methane that is being generated in these environments.
So that's of concern to us. We think it could be a relatively slow process.
There's a lot of debate as to how much of that methane will come out.
When will it be earlier? Will it be next? You know, will it be at 50 years, a hundred years?
Uh, people refer to that as the, the methane time bomb.
Uh, our hope is that that time will be in the long, long term and that we can, we, but we know that already there was some feedback on climate that's taking place.
And of course it's another one. It's one of these vicious circles again, that you're generating more methane, that's heating up the atmosphere, that's warming the permafrost, which is providing more opportunity for these little microbes to start producing the methane.
Geopolitical Implications: The Polar Silk Road and Arctic Cooperation
Keller:
[22:41] And looking at that from a more infrastructure point of view, could you describe the Polar Silk Road?
Warwick:
[22:47] So, yeah. So, there are a lot of geopolitical implications of these changes that are taking place.
And we see that. I've been working on a committee called the International Arctic Science Committee, which brings together nations interested in the Arctic.
When we started, there were nine nations, now there are 23.
And a lot of that relates to what are the implications of a decreased ice concentration in the Arctic Ocean, more open water.
What that means is the potential for more shipping, particularly through the Northwest Passage and then the other side of act of the Russian side referred to as the Northern Seaway.
And we see each year that opening up more and more.
[23:36] China has been very interested in this opportunity because for two reasons.
One is that the Northern Seaway allows a much faster tracking of ships from Asia to Europe.
And secondly, it's a seaway out of the influence of the United States.
So politically, it's very interesting for them as a way to avoid international interference in what their operations are.
So they refer to that as the Polar Silk Road, as a new kind of transit way along the Russian coast.
And I have to say, we are very concerned about what's happening in the Russian Arctic right at the moment.
There's a scaling up of military activity, a scaling up of industrial activity, and a scaling up of transport.
And we are connected to that in Canada. We're all connected because the world, it's the world ocean and everything is connected on this planet.
So, you know, once again, the linkages there are important for us to keep track of in a changing climate. Dr.
Brent:
[24:39] Kahne Definitely. And in the book chapter you sent us, which we will put on the website for everyone to read as well.
It was really eye-opening to see the US, China, and Russia all say that their quotations that you put in there, it was, we are experiencing climate change, but there's an economic opportunity here.
And to view that economic opportunity, could you contrast how there might be like a race to take control over the Arctic versus the very collaborative nature of of the Antarctic?
Warwick:
[25:12] It's an enormous contrast between Antarctica and the Arctic.
Again, it relates to the fundamental geographic differences of those two regions of the world.
Antarctica is a long way away from the rest of the world. It's cut off by a stormy ocean, the Southern Ocean.
It's under international jurisdiction by way of the Antarctic Treaty.
All claims by sovereign nations are put to one side.
It's regulated by an international body under the Antarctic treaty system.
And so, it is a continent devoted to peace and to science, to research, to understanding how our planet works, given how the portal regions exert such a major influence on the rest of the planet.
The opposite is true, unfortunately, of the Arctic, because of course, nations have been there for thousands of years.
The Inuit have been there for thousands of years. So, there are sovereign claims in the Arctic that are well-recognized.
And as a consequence of that, it's more difficult to achieve international cooperation in the Arctic.
We thought it was going really well, actually, up until quite recently, and it still is going very well. There's an enormous level of cooperation.
The Russian situation is a big impediment to that at the moment, but other nations are still working very closely together. The Arctic Council was set up to, at a political level, to really make linkages.
Norway's chairmanship of the Arctic Council and cooperation efforts.
[26:40] And as of this year, Norway is the chair of the Arctic Council, and we've talked to the Norwegians.
They really are wanting to still work towards that cooperation.
We're in the long term, really working towards the long term in a spirit of cooperation.
Brent:
[26:54] Hopefully that one's out. Yeah.
Warwick:
[26:56] And it may be the long, long term. But I think the rest of the nations are on board, including China.
China wants to work with other nations. Again, they have economic interests.
Brent:
[27:05] Mm-hmm.
Warwick:
[27:07] India is very active now in the Arctic.
They see this as the front line of climate change, and they want to be on the front line to figure out what's going on, because they're going to have the most populous country in the world, and they need to know about water supply and and projections of temporary.
And the way you do that is you end up in the front line of research because then you access the rest of the world's research.
Brent:
[27:29] Definitely.
Keller:
[27:30] Could you talk about some of the larger international agreements like the Paris Accords or the COP26.
How oftentimes the largest producers, or polluters rather, are doing the least to take action.
Warwick:
[27:44] It's ironic, isn't it? We hear a lot of talk from large nations that say that they're wanting to respect these international agreements, including Canada, I should say.
[27:59] And it's, and politically we see the very difficult political balance that politicians face with huge factions, particularly related to the oil, the hydrocarbon industry.
In fact, it is interesting that at the COP meeting, the second largest delegation was the oil and gas delegation.
So, you know, they have vested interests. At one level, they say, wow, We're going to be scaling up renewables and BP said, well, you know, it's 40% will be renewables.
Well, now they've said, well, now we think about it could be 25%.
And we saw last year record profits from the oil producers.
Citizen engagement and influence on elected officials and climate policy.
[28:43] So it's huge money, it's huge influence, huge political influence.
I think what we can do as citizens is make sure that we're hearing the platform of of elected officials at every single level.
And it begins at your local town level, your local community level.
What does that person stand for?
And then at the county level, and then at the state level, and then at the federal level, and then internationally, who are we supporting here?
And that voice, I think we can really make a difference there to influence through votes and really press our policy. Well, what do you stand for exactly?
And because these individuals have a much greater influence on global climate change than we do as a single person.
But we do have a vote. And we have a vote at multiple levels and we can really make that count.
Brent:
[29:38] You can definitely do your part. And then in that last question there, you touched on the renewables.
Could you talk about your latest discovery about these bacteria or archaea producing.
The Potential of Blue-Green Oil Production
Warwick:
[29:53] Hydrocarbons. So there's a lot of interest in trying to find alternatives to fossil fuels.
We call them fossil fuels because it's oil from plants, but plants that lived on planet earth millions of years ago.
So we're mobilizing all that ancient carbon and putting it into the atmosphere and exceeding all these planetary thresholds.
But we realize there are also some natural oil production mechanisms.
And this is, we're referring to this as blue-green oil, blue-green because we see it as a recycling kind of system. It's new hydrocarbons.
And so, there are some opportunities there to really tap into these natural oil producing mechanisms as a way to produce hydrocarbons and a way to produce energy.
Brent:
[30:43] Yeah. That last discovery was fascinating because no one, I never realized that the ocean was producing hydrocarbons, which is similar to oil, not directly, but then also degrading it at the same time.
And I look forward to seeing more of that get discovered.
Warwick:
[30:59] There was a real amazing discovery at our end as well to realize that, hang on a second, there are oil producers in the ocean.
And not only that, some of these compounds look like jet fuel.
Yeah. And yet, the sea is not filling up with oil. When you go down to the seashore, you're not jumping into an ocean of oil because there are this natural degradation.
And that's, I think that's the trick with renewables. You want to make sure that that carbon cycle is closed. So, you're producing the CO2, but you're also consuming the CO2, and it's not getting out into the atmosphere.
Indigenous Communities and the Right to Be Cold
Keller:
[31:31] And as we wrap up here, can you talk about how some indigenous groups like the Inuit are often disproportionately affected by these extreme changes and speak on the right to be cold.
Warwick:
[31:42] For the Yodawit...
The whole concept of ice is a very, very deep concept.
They've lived on the ice for thousands of years.
Their whole culture is based on living on the ice. So ice is their transport surface with their dog sleds over the ice and walking along the ice edge to go hunting. It's their access point to food.
[32:07] The food web that they consider themselves part of is an ice-based food web.
It's microbes in the sea ice producing these lipids and other compounds, moved on to animals and then up to finally seals and whales, et cetera.
So the ice is, but it's even more important than that.
It's fascinating when I've been talking to Inuit about how it's a deep, it's a spiritual aspect.
As they say, there's a memory in the ice. It is part of, it's a very deep part of their culture. You look at their language, Inuktitut.
Are so many words that relate to different kinds of ice and living on the ice.
And like Tekavik is a lookout place on the ice.
So much is related to the ice. And part of that is the cold.
And they have said, you know, climate warming is a crime against humanity.
It's a crime against us. It is a genocide because it is affecting our culture.
Our culture depends on the integrity of ice on planet Earth.
And you are destroying that integrity, you are destroying that.
[33:15] Surrounding environment of extreme cold temperatures. And so, Sheila Watt-Cloutier has been one of the key advocates amongst the Inuit.
And she has said, you know, we have a right to be cold.
It is our human right, and you are violating that right. Yeah.
Keller:
[33:30] And could you mention some of the organizations you guys are working with?
Warwick:
[33:33] There are organizations at different levels. In Canada, at the national level, there's an organization called Inuit Tapirit Kanatami, which means all the Inuit together.
And that brings together Inuit from the western side, from the Yukon right across to up in Nunavut, the different northern parts of Canada.
And then at an international level, there is the Inuit Circumpolar Committee.
And that brings together Inuit from Russia, not so easy these days, from Alaska, the Alaskan Inuit are very active in conservation initiatives, for example, Greenland, Canada.
And so these international organizations, I think, are really important because they have soft power.
They may not have the resources of, huge resources of Western nations, but they capture people's imagination.
And people can relate to this as fellow human beings who have lived under certain circumstances.
Brent:
[34:35] Yeah. I think that's a beautiful message to get across to the listener.
And then there was another message that we wanted to bring up of mentorship.
And last night we had the privilege and the honor really to get dinner with all of you guys from Jeff to you to your mentor, Professor Goldman.
Could you talk a little bit about how mentorship and...
Academia as a team has really shaped your life and your research?
Warwick:
[35:02] Well, I think mentoring has been everything. It's because you start off just incredibly ignorant, you know nothing, and that's normal, everyone's like this, but you know there are people out there that hold some of the secrets that might give you a few beacons to the way forward.
And the best thing you can do is talk to a number of people, talk to lots of people.
I think sometimes students are a bit intimidated by professors, but actually we love talking to students. That's why we're professors.
And so, you know, you should never feel bad about at the end of a lecture going up to a professor and say, that was really interesting. Can you tell me about this? Or what sort of research goes on in your lab?
And just, and cause I noticed this in my own class, you know, people are anxious to rush out and I don't know where they're going, but they're the ones that stay. It's a great opportunity to talk a little bit more about their interests and what they're doing.
So I think a way of thinking about professors is that we're kind of windows and every professor is a different window to a different part of the world.
And so by talking to professors, you're actually connecting with a network and very often a very large network, like Professor Goldman.
I mean, Professor Goldman has, he graduated 100 students from UC Davis, 100 PhDs.
[36:23] They're all over the world now. So, you talk to him, you're tapping into key people everywhere from Asia to Scandinavia to South America.
[36:33] And so, that mentoring is critical and sometimes you have to build up courage.
I went to my very first conference, I saw all these famous name people there, I was totally intimidated.
And I finally built up confidence enough to go up to one of these great names and I introduced myself and he said, Well, what do you got? Which intimidated me even further.
Brent:
[36:58] I'm sure.
Warwick:
[36:59] But, and then actually that led to lots of exchanges and over the course of the next 40 years, we became actually collaborators and worked together.
But it was from building up a little bit of courage to ask that person who seemed so far above anything that I could ever aspire to.
But suddenly that was opening up a new world. And so, take the plunge.
Brent:
[37:22] Yeah. We've seen that ourselves with the podcast. Everyone's been so receptive to talk to us and just want to help, not us, but also all the people that hopefully are listening to this as well.
Warwick:
[37:32] Right. That's such a great thing you're doing.
Keller:
[37:35] As we part here, how can students get involved in The Last Frontier?
How can they get to these extreme environments?
Warwick:
[37:41] Well, the best way is to make contact with research groups that are working in these areas. And so, this is not the sort of place that you want to walk to yourself.
You may not walk up there. Maybe a one-way trip. You really want to build up experience and look around, look at what professors are doing, what in different places.
Volunteer. Sometimes, you know, maybe you're not going to be paid to work up there.
You're going to get free food and board from that. And plus, you're going to end up with a killer line on your CV that is opening the door to the next step.
So, you know, I don't think you should be looking at the money in the short of it. I know it's, you know, it's important. We got to be able to stay alive and function.
The Importance of Working in a Team
[38:26] But look at opportunities and say, you know, can I help out in a lab or is it an opportunity to help one of your graduate students? And even if it's not during the field season, it's, they, they're going to be able to just being seen around an office or a research group, they realize that, well, yeah, this, this guy could be pretty useful to us.
Uh, this young lady, yeah, maybe she could fit in and we could really, we could really use her help cause she's really helpful.
And, uh, so a lot of that is being able to work in a team because when you're working in these field programs, you're a long way from home.
You really depend on each other. It comes down to every person's survival and success is the group. It's the group around you.
You're there to help everyone else. You're responsible for everyone, including your professor.
Brent:
[39:16] It's amazing. Any final parting words of wisdom?
Warwick:
[39:20] Well, I just think that there are so many incredible opportunities in the environmental sciences, which is my own area, as I've had the joy and the privilege of working in so many parts of the world from pole to pole in Asia or Europe, South America.
We live on a beautiful planet. It is an extraordinary richness that we are part of.
We have to figure out a better way to look after it, but we should, I think the best thing you can do is learn more about it and get involved.
I think this is a fantastic, and stay positive because, you know, we have imagination.
People say, it's too late.
It's not too late, we have imagination. The Inuit are showing us this ability to adapt, to think outside the box, to stay alive, to help each other.
Climate Change as a Challenge and the Importance of Getting Involved
[40:08] This is an incredible time. And I think the climate change is this huge challenge that faces everyone.
But what a fantastic challenge to be part of, to be helping humanity get through all this. It's a very important time to be alive and to be involved in studies.
Brent:
[40:23] Pete Certainly. Go get involved. Jared Yeah.
Keller:
[40:25] It's been an honor. Thank you very much.
Warwick:
[40:27] Peter Well, it's been a real pleasure. Jared Thank you. Nice to talk to you.